I haven't been on the forums in a while, but I just had a question.
I've been on more than just the elder scrolls forums when discussing Skyrim, and it seems almost unanimous, or a large majority of people don't like scaled leveling, or at least their a very vocal group.

My question is this...

...and i know i'm opening up a huge can of worms here, but...

Why is scaled leveling so bad?

I'm not for or against it, but isn't the elder scrolls #1 priority being a sandbox game, and doesn't scaled leveling allow the most freedom to do whatever you want at whatever point in the game? I dunno, I'm only asking because I haven't heard the specific arguments of each side.

The problem with scaled leveling is that unless you're a strong melee fighter or a good spellcaster with a lot of really strong spells, you're screwed.

People who like to be stealthy or play the rogue have no chance of surviving after a certain level.

Also, IMHO the game should NOT be a 'sandbox' game. It should be an open-world game. "You can do what you want, when you want, but this may well result in you being killed". That's a lot more interesting, no?

Vanilla Oblivion was much too close to the 'sandbox' game you describe, and that makes the world feel lifeless and unrealistic. It's not even the challenge aspect I'm really concerned about here (although I do enjoy the challenge of weighing up my chances of surviving stuff, sometimes taking a risk, other times playing it safe) - it's that a living world full of life and danger draws the player into it much more effectively then a plasticine playground where you can do no wrong.

My problem with level scaling is that it pretty much makes gaining levels pointless. If going into a dungeon is the exact same difficulty at level 30 as it is at level 1 then why bother? There's no sense of progression. At times it even seems like the world is gaining levels and you're not. By the time you're able to use the Enemies Explode spell, it doesn't even do what it's name implies.

Yes, the freedom to go anywhere you like at level 1 or level 500. It doesn't matter.

The difference should be whether or not you get a lesson in pain. ( Depending on that level ofcourse )

Level scaling kills that, and makes the game far too easy.

but see, to me that just means they need to up the stealth aspect. which i knew needed to be done since morrowind and continued to need improvement with oblivion. and if you do get rid of scaled leveling, which i have no problem with, how do you make it so that certain quests don't become impossible simply because, hey, this ogre's gonna slap you dead in one hit. i dunno...

Also, highwaymen and bandits should not wind up wearing kick-ass armor.

For one leveled items is annoying. Once you get the item you're stuck with that caliber of that item for the rest of the game. I heard Knights of the Nine expansion has a way of updating the armor, but would be nice to apply that to all leveled items.
Another is it gets mighty boring slashing away more than a hundred times against a Goblin Warlord which keeps gaining health for every level you gain.

I'll disagree with this. I've played quite the successful stealth characters numerous times in Oblivion. Sneak attacks can help a lot, among other things.

The other main problem is that it kills any sense of progression because enemies are generally just as difficult as they were at the beginning of the game. Part of the fun of RPGs is smoking enemies that used to be too tough for your character.

Relating to loot, I didn't like how once I achieved a certain level caves that once held worthless items suddenly held valuable loot.

That's kinda the idea. If you go up against an ogre at level 5 you should get slapped dead. Go earn a few levels then come back and try again. It's not impossible, it's just impossible for a weak character. That's the reward for putting time and effort into making your character stronger. There's plenty of dungeons and landscape out there for you to explore in the mean time.

This is the most obvious one and I hate it also.

:thumbsup:


And the whole nothing is fun because your a god and enemies become damage sponges.

Problems I have with level scaling:

? Eliminates a sense of progression that should come with raising your character's level
? Creates a very artificial and unrealistic system of loot collecting/progression
? If anything, it offers incentive for the player not to level up
? There are way better systems for determining enemy strength IMO (see http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1151138-level-scaling-in-skyrim-part-3/page__p__16843729#entry16843729 for my own in-depth proposal)
? Removes challenges and rewards associated with exploring places that may be too dangerous for your level

Yes and no. I'll admit, at certain points I LOVE getting to play God by being ridiculously powerful, but that also makes lower leveled area's (because i'm assuming area's are then leveled) become pointless. I like the way the Grand Theft Auto games do God gaming, i.e. playing the game is NEVER easy, but the game comes with built in cheats if you just want to mess around.

Picking on goblins that fly across the room because i'm so powerful the physics engine near has a heart attack just looses its taste after a while.

And as for a sense of progression, to me the feeling of progression doesn't come from the ease with which i defeat my foes, but by the success of defeating even more difficult foes than before.

But that brings in a sense of grinding, and leveling just for the sake of opening up more areas doesn't sound fun to me

People throw that word around too much. Grinding usually involves you running around the same area, whacking the same monsters over and over again to gain levels. In that sense it's next to impossible to grind in TES because enemies don't respawn that quickly. The only way to "grind" is to actually explore. If adventuring is grinding then sign me up.

Say you were exploring at level 2. You came across a small cave door and decided to explore. You meet an angry orc that ' slaps you dead '. Upon death you notice he has a shiney sword, and a pile of gold sitting out on a small table.

Wouldn't you be inspired to gain a few levels through questing, go back at level 5 and smack his chump?

I know I would, and you'd gain not only victory but a new blade and some handy coinage.

I really don't get the 'sense of progression' thing, as i've said before, I don't get satisfaction out of defeating the same enemy twice, just easier the second time,
As for the looting system, i don't think anything is ever going to be realistic, or if it is getting the best stuff will be a matter of simply knowing where the devs put it,
No incentive to level? Do you like not making the game more challenging for yourself?
I like your proposal. I'd keep scaled leveling, but I'd make area's away from civilization harder, like you said, like always 2x your level or something ridiculous hard depending how far,
And again I don't feel like there's any point to making a cave that you just have no hope of leaving alive.

i suppose no scaled leveling isn't that bad, to me its not really better or worse,
the one truly down side to me is that scaled leveling is one thing that made oblivion unique. I guess not in a good way to most people, but having leveled "areas" is just what every other RPG since the first Final Fantasy and whatever major RPG series came before that did. I guess what I really wish is that there was a 3rd alternative, but all i've ever heard are just revamps of the other 2 systems

You'll leave alive if you murder everything on the way through.

Knowing where the Devs put all the rare gear won't automatically make you a walking tank. You go for that epic sword and get beat down by a Bosmer in full ebony. Why? because he's level 15, and you're a trifling little dead man.

You don't is the answer. Certain quests/creatures/whatever should kick your ass mercilessly. This is incentive to do other things and level up your skills so you can get past it- but with the over-the-top kindergarten-playground level scaling in Oblivion, you didn't have that. You had an A/B situation: A, you leveled "properly" and nothing was anything resembling a challenge, or B you leveled in any way other than the optimal power-maximizing way and common bandits stomped your ass consistently, much less anything most people would think of as being tough.

The progression comes from being able to access new areas with new challenges and rewards. Essentially, the incentive to level up in a system like the one I proposed is that you will constantly be presented with new adventures. There is no progression with level scaling; if anything there is regression. Personally I found combat to be more tedious and less enjoyable at higher levels, even with my cool enchanted blade. At high levels in Oblivion, I was more or less invincible, yet it took me longer to kill most enemies if I was just using a standard hack-and-slash combat style.


No. In my system, even if you know where the best stuff is, you still have to find a way to get it. This probably requires leveling up somewhat, gaining a degree of tactical awareness, and also building up a good stock of supplies, and probably some luck as well. In Oblivion, if you know where the best stuff is, you just go there and slash guys, because they'll be at a level that makes them killable. And when you do get to that item, in some cases it will be scaled so it's not even as good as it could be. That makes no sense to me. And it svcks when you "outgrow" those scaled weapons... That is one of the most annoying aspects of Oblivion's leveling system.


I do like making the game more challenging for myself, which i think I made pretty clear in my proposal for an alternative system. Notice how my character, Joe Adventurer, was constantly pushing the bar and trying to go further and further into the unknown? And as a result, he was finding greater challenges and greater rewards... That is the ideal system for me.


I would hate that... That would just offer more incentive not to increase your level... Again, I never had any problem beating any NPC in Oblivion once I hit level 25+, but combat was less fun for that. It took longer to kill an enemy for the same ultimately inconsequential leveled loot. I would never go out exploring in the endgame if I knew that I'd be facing battles that were even more long and dull, just because they made those enemies scaled even higher from you level.


I disagree. Like someone else said, when you walk into a cave at level 2 and get nearly slaughtered by the Orc who dwells inside, and you notice he has a slick sword on him, you will want to gain a few levels and come back to challenge him again and take that sword for yourself. That's genuine, natural progression.

The more I think/talk about scaling, the less appealing it is to me. I think the main quest should be scaled to the player's level for the simple purpose of making it possible to complete at any level without too much or too little challenge. But outside of the main quest, I want to see as little scaling as possible.

what i didn't like is how easy it is to get a full set of the best armour in the game. Usually it takes time and effort but in oblivion you just have to get to level 30 and then you start to see people with deadric everywhere you go.

It was very disappointing. :brokencomputer:

I think the main quest was the part were scaling bugged me the most. You simply fly through the game in no time until you realize your done.
My favorite part of Morrowind was freelance adventuring when things were to high level.

I think my confusion here comes from the assumption I made earlier. I don't know why, but even when I played Morrowind it seemed to me that TES's absolute number 1 rule was complete freedom to do the quests in whatever order. Admittedly I only played Morrowind for maybe 50 hours, and most of that I was just messing around, but I felt like the point was you write the story by choosing the order of the quests, instead of being funneled down a few certain choices because only 3 quests are at your level like every other RPG. Now don't get me wrong, thats not a bad system hence why every other RPG does it, but I just felt like TES was suppose to break that rule. I guess not though. Thats ok.

I do have to admit, it would be pretty cool to take an ogre down with a rusty dagger at level 1 out of sheer luck and insane determinism. THAT's what I call "progression". Not getting a better character, becoming a better player. I guess I just figured scaled leveling allowed the game to ease you into some of the more advanced gameplay mechanics as you, the player, got better.

I guess power leveling kinda breaks that idea though, which i'll admit I do quite often.

Level 52 High Elf Male God-class. Pointlessly awesome.