you do know that EVERY ES game had level scaling

well it will probably be hardly noticable unless you pay close attention they have had quite some time to get the scaling down

Regardless of that, the heavy reliance on level scaling for everything had an impact on exploration as well, because there was almost nothing unique to be found anywhere. In Morrowind and Fallout 3 I really want to explore everywhere, and wonder what's inside a building. Who knows what you may find. In Oblivion, I couldn't care less, because I know that there's going to be nothing of interest in there at all, with the exception of an ayleid statue in a couple of Ayleid ruins and a few other minor things. And having marauders in daedric armor and bandits in glass armor was dumb.

That's what killed Oblivion for me, mostly. Not the ability to make the game super easy by illogically abusing game mechanics.

Totally bad idea, with bad implementation. No, no, huge no.


Posts like OP turn RPG's into action games.

"Enemies should be getting stronger as you level. It's how single player RPGs should work."

Thats not true at all. I thought the point of an RPG game was to grow your character, become stronger and take on the bigger baddies as you level up.
If the enemies keep getting stronger with you then your never really growing. What your explaining is an action game. Something like Ninja Gaiden should get harder as you go on, not Elder Scrolls.
Thats just how I feel about it, I guess.

No, it definitely was the level scaling. The same issue occurs if you focus exclusively on your major skills. The same issue occurs regardless of what you do.

Ok I suppose you're right.

But forget about enemy level scaling, how do you guys feel about the dungeon level lock? If I just happen to enter it at a low level, get half way through, leave, then return at a higher level would the monsters inside stay at a super low level? That seems like a really bad idea to me, and could kill many dungeons if you "accidently" enter one, or something.

yeah, but i used mods that completely randomized enemy level scaling and it dramatically increased the atmosphere of the game. you could no longer predict what was going to be in any given area outside of the main roads which were kept safe for obvious reasons. it increased both the difficulty and the fear factor of the game. i plan on using a similar mod for skyrim when that gets released since i cannot go back to playing with any kind of level scaling. its just training wheels and makes the game to predictable.

@ihateidz........im hoping that they will divvy the dungeons up so that 1/3 of them lock at low levels another 1/3 will lock at medium levels and the final 1/3 will lock at high levels. if i go into a cave at level 5 i have a 1 in 3 chance of being able to clear it out. when i get to mid level i have a 2 in 3 chance of being able to complete the cave and when im high level obviously i should be able to survive it barring doing stupid stuff. it would really detract from the game world if every cave ended having the same exact creatures as the other caves. rats and low level bandits dont cease to exist all of a sudden after all.

The way I have heard it explained (can't comment confidently on the accuracy of my source) is that it has "layers" of difficulty, where each layer will have a certain number of levels, say, 5. So one dungeon is a level 10-15 dungeon. Now when you enter it, it will lock to whatever is closest to your level, that is still within the range. So if you enter the lvl 10-15 dungeon at level 4, it will lock at 10. If you enter it at 12, it will lock at 12. If you enter at 25, it will lock at 15. This way, you can't just enter every dungeon and then come back at a higher level and have everything be easy. There will be easy dungeons and harder dungeons regardless.

Not supposedly right. He is right. There's no point of characterprogression if the game does not reflect that progression.

And the dungeons have certain scale of levels within which they lock. If you enter a dungeon with a scale of 15-18 at level 3, the dungeon will likely lock at level 15 - depending on if the randomize it or not (which I think they should).

Personally, I think they should clear the level lock for a dungeon for the next reset if all the denizens are killed, but leave it in place if critters remain.

I don't want the world to revolve around my character. I don't want every enemy in the game to get significantly stronger just because I leveled up a few times. I don't want anyone to suddenly get better equipment because I leveled up a few times. I want there to be dangerous places and enemies that I simply cannot beat at a low level, and I want to be rewarded with high level loot when I am strong enough to beat them. I want to be able to go back to places with lower level enemies that were difficult at one point, but now that I am stronger I can obliterate them. That's the point of leveling up and making my character stronger.

Anyway there was something mentioned about enemies and dungeons generally getting harder as you go higher into the mountains, which is a great idea. There should be no limit on where I can go, but if I go deep into the wilderness with a low level character, I should expect to be entering very dangerous territory.

Actually, that sounds like the right way to do it, to me. Come back later when you're stronger - you should beat the crap out of the dudes you already knew were living there. :shrug:


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Most "non-level-scaled" games are very linear - like console JRPGs. You start in Region 1, fighting monsters that are challenging for your level. Once you're strong enough, you graduate to Region 2 - stronger monsters to provide you a bigger challenge. And as you get stronger (and beat boss fights or whatever keeps you from moving on), you progress from region to region. But the monsters are locked within each area - if you go back to the beginning zone, you'll utterly curbstomp the level 1 enemies there. Nothing ever changes. That's what non-scaled games are like.

Doesn't really work well for "open world" games, where you can wander around at will. Some sort of level scaling is useful.... but, as nearly everyone is aware, Oblivion went about it in a completely hamhanded manner.

Well, you want a game. "Many people" on this forums you mention want a world.

I don't want any artificial difficulty which will hurt the believability of the world. So any kind of level scaling is bad for me.

If I'm the hero, a low bandit should be no threat for me. My hard-work to get that stage should pay off. Also my exploration should reward me with whatever powerful item there is. If it's within my reach then I deserve it. No to item scaling. Skills already take care of this kind of scaling.

So I disagree with you on all points except one: The difficulty spectrum should be narrower. Level scaling is the wrong answer.

Level Scaling isn't completely bad although Oblivion overkilled it.

Item Scaling is TERRIBLE :flame: :flame: :flame: :swear: :swear:

Dungeon Scaling I'm worried about but then again I plan to grind so that won't be an issue

The Level Scaling is more like Fallout 3 which is good as you can still go everywhere but you do have to be careful or you will get killed.

I think everybody has some concerns about Level Scaling and other things but then again it's still too early yet. I'd need to see it in action before I declare it a failure or a success.

In the last year I've got several hundred hours in Morrowind and am approaching 100hrs. in Oblivion.
I don't really like scaled leveling at all. Especially item leveling.

Some of my most memorable gaming experiences were in Morrowind, going near and into Daedric Ruins as a lowish level character.
Some butt-puckering stuff right there. You KNEW everything there had no problem chewing you up and spitting you out.
But man, it was fun devising plans to come out the winner.

KNOWING that pearl on the alter you were about to snatch up was gonna' summon a Dremora Lord, and devising intricate plots of how you were gonna' handle it.
"Well, I'll summon my Ancestor ghost, use this shield scroll, drink 2 of these potions then I'll grab the pearl and run over here into this corner as fast as I can and start blasting with my fireballs..."

THAT was FUN, HAIR RAISING gaming.

I LIKE having places that are kinda' off limits and too hard. It keeps you striving. The first Daidric weapon I got in Morrowind was truly a cause for celebration.

And once I'm a bit experienced I shouldn't be having to even think about Wolves or Mudcrabs. They should just be a passing nuisance. Why should they get stronger with me?? silly...

There's places in my real life I wouldn't venture into unless well prepared. Maybe not even then.

I have some time in Fall Out 3 and it feels pretty good and balanced. So far.

However they do it, I hope it turns out awesome.

Correct. In terms of adventure, it's better for most of the areas in Skyrim to completely kick your butt in the beginning of the game. As your character progresses, you slowly build the skills able to handle tougher dungeons. The most epic and challenging caves should be saved for last. It gives the player a sense of accomplishment when he is finally able to survive the hardest areas of the game. Even the final challenges should be something that significantly challenges the player. Scaling killed this is Oblivion. You could go through the main quests and kill nothing but scamps and inferior dremoras. Terrible.

Another way to handle the issue is to not make a high-level PC so powerful. I wish an RPG would be made where an advanced player could still lose to the easiest bandit if he didn't pay attention. Both the PC and enemies could be easily dispatched, a high level PC just has advantages in more abilities and nice equipment that would grant him the ability to survive just a little more punishment. None of this "bullet sponge" style gameplay, it gets old.

Sorry but I didn't like any of those ideas personally.

Someone please play Risen, even though I wouldn't rank it highly, its still a more enjoyable game than oblivion, for precisely the reason that there is no level scaling and no fast travel. The game world is maybe a tenth the size of oblivion, it feels 100 times as large also because of these things

that actually does sound kinda cool if they randomized it, but they did say that specific areas would be more difficult than others

This would be my preference in any RPG... but I don't think that's how it will be in Skyrim. My impression was that areas would have a preset range and lock when you enter them; but max out at the top of their [enemy level] range if your PC is higher than than maximum.

No Fast Travel in a game of this size would be a deal breaker for me. IMO the player needs to be able to skip the tedium when needed; (say like when they have crippled limbs in FO:NV ~for some crazy reason the game won't let you map-travel with a crippled leg :bonk:.

**Edit: In HC mode anyway...

I'm hip!

I'm cool

I'm literate!

But can't be bothered :shakehead:

I understand what you are trying to say and it's HORRIBLE. Level scaling in Oblivion was BROKEN.

You want unique items to scale with you?? There should be LESS item scaling not more.

fallout 3 scaling is awesome, it's hardly noticeable, If you aren't scrutinizing it

The problem with scaling wasn't just about players exploiting the skill system. It was also abot how the enemies had awkward increases to their health etc and how gross the differences were between 1 and 100 skill points - try fighting a level 15 Timber Wolf with Glass bow and arrows but a Marksman skill of 25. Good luck wasting those 30+ arrows.

Second, weapons and armor do scale with the players, just not his level. This is neither good nor bad, because it depends entirely on how it specifically plays out. In Oblivion it was bad, I give you that, but that the values themselves and not scaling (or lack of scaling) as a design concept.

Third, as people have already pointed out, there WILL be scaling in Skyrim. Not like Oblivion, but closer to Fallout 3.