Perhaps you would like to preface this with some actual evidence? You know like I did, Paarthurnax says that he has to meditate to fight his urges. Whereas the Blades have been serving the Empire and the Emperor since the First Era. So no, either explain it to me or I can't take your arguements seriously. Namely zero.

FYI Delphine and Esbern aren't the only remaining Blades in the game, there's a man named Fulthiem at the Nightgate Inn who seems to be a Blade in hiding.

I would empathize with them a bit more if they actually made some logical decisions. Also Delphine introduces herself with "I am good" but stole your quest item here it is back, now trust me and listen without question. Verses passive dragon who yells at his followers who are naturally are skeptical that a born dragon killer isn't going to off him on sight and they make exception for you so that you can learn the power that brought down Alduin himself.

One side is willing to talk the other is not. I am also not sure how a leader is suppose to lead if all they get is orders. Also not sure how a dragon can even give a cheery smile, probably more a factor of he made a lot more sense.

Your breaching on territory that leads to things like you were a born with a destiny and you can do nothing to change it. You do know that there is always hope in the wasteland unless you never played them all but anyways. It is ironic because I think the description of the urge to fight and reign supreme is easily applicable outside the game IRL humans.

Not quite, it's not about just ideology. Well, ideology plays a role, but the main thing is changing own consciousness through meditations etc. This is what Paarthurnax achieved and this is what he's going to spread. He may succeed, he may fail, but, firstly, as Merari said, there's very little chance that after thousands of years of "peace" he'll suddenly change into warmonger. Secondly, he's not immortal and he's not that much stronger then a regular dragon.

As a result - we leave him alive, in worst-case scenario we get +1 hostile dragon (like... is there a much difference between 30 and 31 dragon for example? As for (possibly) higher intellect, I bet not all of other dragons are useless cannon fodder, there'll be some good leaders as well), in best case scenario - we either get a friendly dragon race or we split em, with part of the dragons supporting Paarthurnax, that will effectively reduce mankind losses when dealing with the rest (agressive) dragons.
IMO, killing him make absolutely zero sense in terms of consequences.

If we kill him ... well, then we're guaranteed to have to deal with all of the rest dragons, that will also go on rampage after seeing that Paarthurnax's way of the voice didn't bring him peace.

And I don't seriously consider few thousand year old grudges. Consequences is what matters.

I'm not sure when Paarthurnax yells at his followers, you give them the horn and he says "you can meet him".


How does he make more sense? He initially gives you more help and is acts kind, that is why some many people are but-hurt. That and the idea that the Blades don't un-questioningly follow the Dragon-Borns every command, which I find ironic given that I've seen people say "I won't be the Blades pawn" yet expect the Blades to be theirs.

Notice the word, biological or perhaps a better word, pathological. Paarthurnax himself says that sometimes he wants to go back to the old ways, that's why he meditates. So your point about people is completely invalid. Not every person has to meditate to prevent them from killing.

How about a couple eras fighting that urge while leading a completely passive group of powerful people who became respected by all the passing kingdoms and rulers. While the Blades succeeded in committing genocide, then getting themselves mostly killed off.

Are they still serving the Emperor or Empire, no. They have been replaced and don't seem to pleased about that fact. The Graybeards have existed over the same time span doing the exact same thing when they first started and are still alive to talk about it. They didn't loose any records, histories, important places, leaders....

I am confused as to the chances you are referring to as there currently is a number of reasons.

The Blades took an Oath to serve the Dragoborn. I.E, you.

They served every Dragonborn Emperor. Even Pelagius the -Mad.-

Damn right they can be my puppets if their organization served a guy that tried to outlaw Death.

Paarthuniax is a hero. -Yes,- he did terrible things, but in rebelling and deciding -not- to do terrible things anymore, he ensured the survival of men and mer and allowed us to live another day, -plus- gave us the knowledge we needed to defeat Alduin.

And -another- thing. Tiber Septim ventured up High Hrogthar, once, when he was summoned by the Greybeards, no doubt meeting Paarthuniax. If the God-Emperor Talos did not order his blades to slay him, or did it himself, why should we?

This bugged me too, and made Delphine and Esbern (the latter of whom I really liked initially) very unsympathetic.

Rather more aggrivating is that they don't take into account the challenge involved, from an in-character, in-lore perspective; old Paarthy is a master of the Voice after all, and might well have blown the Dragonborn off High Hrothgar for his trouble.

Maybe not he then but what about the other Dragons whom he unites? Whom have had a complete 180 degree law reversal on them? Can you garuntee their devotion to the Way of the Voice? Or are we going to have another Dragon War in the future?

Old grudges? How is former - and now an attempted - return to tryranny an "old grudge". Paarthurnax killed lots of people and did lot's od bad things but then he did a good turn so all is forgiven? Can you really chalk up potentially thousands of deaths and centuries of domination as an "old grudge" just because a lot of time has past. Your equating people to numbers, "Oh he killed X many people then but he saved Y many so he's a good guy," that's how bad moral choice systems work. Ultimately the guy killed people once and even if he never does agains so what. He helped other-throw Alduin, he tried to do good and repair some damage - I can get that; Doesn't make what he did go away, he could do it to put himself at peace but ultimately he is still accountable for those crimes. Especially if he can easily live for thousands of years, essentially out-live the repercussions.

@Jango, no they didn't. They've refused orders from a Dragon-Born before and are perfectly justified in doing so now. Grow uip.

The Graybreads don't like it when you ask about learning dragonrend due it is potential implications but Paarthurnax does intervene and changes their minds. He basically doesn't care if you know it and more than likely wants to help you learn it to save the world.

No I don't care about the Blades one bit, if they don't want to listen to reason then I'll just ignore them that is the choice that is left with the player. Or in my case they left the universe in quest bugs.

Biological, pathological, you are literally saying that it is possible to be born serial killers, mass murders, etc... there is always a tendency but in Psychology there is that nature verses nurture argument that even the game picks up on that.

I am fairly certain the people at some point in their lives really wanted to do something very wrong ethically but choose not to, meditate = think deeply. It is pretty much certain that no one is perfect and some less than most but that doesnt discount the ability to choose, if not then all murders should be going to mental asylums instead of jail. If they can choose not to then they are not pathologically insane. Blades on the other hand have an oath to kill regardless of reason. hmmm.

Lol. The Greybeards don't do anything. Literally. Why do they even learn the voice? They don't need to learn it, don't speak, don't leave their damn Monastery - and seemingly rely on the good nature of Ivarstead to make sure they have food, that's real noble right? Getting free food delivered to the height of the tallest mountain in Tamriel.

Glad to see that you've already forgotten the Blades massive efforts in the Oblivion Crisis and such; your right, all they did was get killed and kill others - no biggie.

Paarthunax used the greybeards and the dragonborn as a tool to kill Alduin and take the throne himself. Clever boy!

Sure.
Its been 7000 years.
Thats a lot of meditation, a lot of enlightenment and a lot of learnt about self-control.

Humans are agressive creatures. We also have a biological inclination to bash heads in.

If ole P has 7k years under his hat of being a pacifist, then there is a much chance he will revert to his old ways as there is of Delphine becoming a cutthroat bandit queen.

And quit the ad-hominems. Now.

He out-rights states that he still continues to fight his more violent urges, he will be meditating forever. Delphine has continued to try and fight the Thalmor and stay loyal to the Blades for all of her life, it is her life. Why would she become a "Bandit Queen", in terms of human lifetimes she has devoted her youth and freedom to the cause; Dragon's are coming back and killing people? Then it's time to do Blade stuff again. She is loyal to the Blades and what they used to do, nowhere in what the Blades were was being a bandit.

So I still consider Paarthurnax the more likely heel-turn.

The problem I have with Delphine and Esbern is that they both cling to ancient ideologies. The previous Blades, from hundreds if not thousands of years ago, committed genocide against the Dragons primarily because of their lust for vengeance against a race that had enslaved humans. But, consider for a moment Arnegir's words of wisdom, where he explained there may have been an alliance between the Humans and Dragons had the Blades acted rationally. Delphine and Esbern are relatively old testament, despite the fact that they were not even in existence during the era of man versus dragon. They continue to cling to this ancient ideology as if it's the absolute truth, and they refuse to think outside of the box for just a second. You mention Blades questioning orders in the past, well, why are they not questioning the orders and ideas of their long forgotten founders?

Where does one begin to forge trust with the Dragons? It has to begin at some point in time, and if the Dovahkiin wants to start now by trusting Paarthurnax, he should very well have that option to do so while also trying to convince the Blades to ditch their misplaced hatred and focus on the future. There is a lack of player option in this part of the game and it's frightening. What if I want to allow Paarthurnaax to live while also leading the Blades into a new era? With or without Delphine's approval, the Dragonborn is the supreme leader of the Blades and who is going to remember two old Blades that refused to ditch their ideals? (Should I decide to kill them). The Dragonborn should have the option to begin the Blades anew under a new ideology, one where the Blades focus on rebuilding what was once lost and focus on the Thalmor threat, not some Dragon sitting atop a peak, living out the rest of his days in peace. Yes, he has to continuously meditate in order to fight his urges, but how is that any different to human interest and behavior? Are we all not ravenous dogs acting and fighting out of self-interest?

On a final note, Paarthunax has resisted his urge to dominate for thousands of years. He is weaker than most Dragons and he helped the humans defeat Alduin not once, but twice (if memory serves correct). Give the dying bastard some credit where it's due.

>> They all know what happened in the last war (They all died) that probably will temper their expectations on living especially with the Graybeards still teaching the way of the voice to people. I also don’t think it is likely that all will adhere to the Way of the Voice but without a leader there in a more favorable position.

>> He didn't just turn good he saved the world twice now do you really want vengeance? The people of the past had plenty of opportunity to know the nature of a leader with such a strange name (Paarthurnax is a giveaway non-human name) and many of the past leaders, groups did nothing to try and kill him.

>> Its like this type of math relationship if you would like those ( x < y*n*2 where n goes to infinity times two and y is the number saved before and in the future and x is the number killed, math wise this relation becomes x<
>> Only problem is that he doesn't run away from his failings and is continuing a self-imposed punishment for eras. If he stops and does a face heel turn then you can slam the door in his face.

>> At least the Graybeards aren't as annoying and make exception for your unique status as "designated hero to save the world now"

Why do they learn the voice well for one they did win the last war. Without the voice they would all be screwed. The player would be screwed too if they didnt stick around waiting for your return as well.

I dont know but how did they become a highly respected neutral party in the first place?, Doubt sitting on a mountain asking for food had anything to do with it. They gave advise and good advise at that.

They also follow the path of peace, not war. They believe in using the Voice in order to gain greater understanding of their surroundings, at least according to the ideologies of Jurgen Windcaller. Essentially they're just pacifists.

Violence isn't exactly something that isn't present in any person in that universe ever. What happens if one day your high brain functions stop and you just have a maddening hunger, you get zombies who are quite violent.

I dont think it is possible for a human to commit more human lifetimes than one. Yes obviously the dragons are a threat but the one that helped you stop it probably much less of a threat.

Actually Paarthurnax is a heel turn face I think you mean face turn heel, tropes they have such colorful names.

They aren't clinging to anything. They know that the Blades had a lot of Dragon-Lore and want to use it to get some justice and save people.

The whole idea of the Blades following a Dragon-Born comes from the T'saesci who surrendered at Pale Pass, then as the Blades evolved as an organisation the idea of following a Dragon-Born really just became one of following the Emperor. Titus Mede II wasn't a Dragon-Born but Esbern still followed the Blades - and he's the Dragon guy.


Lack of player choice is just what Bethesda does and we just have to take it. The Blades swear fealty to a Dragon-Born, but - as with before - one is not necessary. Emperor Mede was not Dragon-Born and the Blades still fought on the Empire's side. And really, the Blades isn't just a name you can slap on everything created by the Dragon-Born - which is what your suggesting. It's a very specific order of knights - the Order of Talos in-fact? - that do very specific things. Making an entirely new organisation that does entirely different things and just calling it "The Blades" is really pointless and the remaining Blades would see through it.

The Blades is an established organisation with it's own laws, code, goals and it's clear that even it's long-time former members are still loyal to it.

And yes, everything has at-least a sub-concious self-interest but that's different from havign to meditate for millenia just to suppress literally tryannical and dictatorial urges.

If he wants peace for himself then that's fair enough, that's why he did good things for some karmatic balance. But it still doesn't provide justice, I mean say it was however many millenia ago but the Nords are very ancestorally driven aren't they? Ruins from the reign of Alduin and Paarthurnax dot the landscape.

And use it to lead in a tyranny of peace, yay/nay?

This, the choices in the game are so lackluster it's absurd. That's if they exist as choices, and even then they have no impact what so ever.

Of course as a good guy I'll just ignore that haunted house or cannibal. I know instead I'll go speak to the Vigilant of Stendarr and get their quests to help them clear the evil beings out....oh wait they don't have any, just boring repetive lines. Only change that comes is when you complete a quest no matter how the followers of the god of MERCY come to kill you even if you done some good and in the process calmed a daedric lord, who isn't always entirely evil.

Why kill someone whom without you or anyone else would exist. Why kill them when you recognise that without you couldn't have dealt with now. Heres a crazy idea Blades, you desperately need to change your ways to avoid vanishing totally, so reform and recruit new people, with the goal to be trained to kill dragons like you always had, but just the evil rampaging ones. And stand guard/watch over Paarthurnax, whom can help you fufill this goal, until the day should it ever arrive he does lose control.

I was equally annoyed by Balgulf 180 on his choice, he leans one way right up til he makes his choice, he doesn't even ask for your opinion, someone he named hero of the hold. Further more says he thought you were smarter then this, helping his people and putting an end to them being killed, or kidnapped while he claims to be for the people but mearly ignores what it's doing to his people. Great, I respected him, but now we have an old coot in charge, at least he's doing more to allow people normal lives then leaning in such a lazy manner in his seat.

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying fable done a better job with giving you freedom and choices that have impact. Maybe 2 but not 3. But still oblivion gave you more choices in longer quest lines, that had impact and people recognised and would change thier daily routines for. This is a game made nearly 6 years ago, and it's previous title being released in half the time between these. And were choices didn't exist that much, not very varied the writing allowed you to argue that even the Dark Botherhood you do some good in, yes they work for a sinister being, but they have rules, they have kept things in order for centuries. The thieves guild the same, yet you could still be a thief just in it for the thrill of these grand heists.

And for that he deserves death?
One death does not cancel out or balance another.

A death is a negative, so logically you only add to the bad karma/ justice.

That's a topic for another discussion entirely. Ultimately we are in a medieval setting where people are execution for treason and other crimes so apparently it does apply.

>> Justice, you mean their “Justice”, don’t want to sound like a record player but justice isnt just a blind system it defined to be reasonable, righteous, fair, etc…

>> Save people you mean to say that if one could detect malintent they should be imprisoned before they can do harm? (Mal intent detectors don’t work very well right now)(The possibility of crime regardless of history warrants execution?)

>> If they were going back to their roots they are sure being selective about what roots they pick.

>> Bethesda does give choice and an interesting discussion topic as well. Wait, how can the Blades swear fealty to the dragon born but not need to at the same time. Well good thing you can just sign up anyone to be one of them now. As I see it they are Blades in name but not in mind.

>> Except their laws are in some sort of turbo mode or something, timed limited court cases are so efficient.

>> Your still missing the point being able to not harm a fly in 1000 years is a pretty strong indicator of something called commitment to an ideal. What is a sub-conscious self-interest, not sure what that means most things have an acute self-interest in a number of things.


Reign of the dragons as a whole I think you mean. One who betrayed them and lead to a free world?, justice already served. Add on wanting to make a lasting peace then that's just icing.