Why does it seem that heroes that change the world disappear afterwards?

It seems that a hero can only exist during a prophecy, but afterwards they disappear. Now, it is known that without a hero, a prophecy cannot be written or happen. After it is written, the hero simply fades away in some manner.

Could it be that heroes gain power because of their unique connection with the scrolls? And when the scroll has been written, they fade into obscurity?

How far does this hero and scroll relationship go?

:spotted owl:

The Eternal Champion: ???
The Hero of Daggerfall = Crushed by the Numidium.
The Neravrine: Went to Akavir, but only according to rumors.
The Champion of Cyrodiil: Shivering Isle was probably included as a way to explain why the CoC disappears.

Only one seems to have disappeared.

I like thinking that for a while after each Event, the Hero gets wrapped up in every single tall tale imaginable. Like, the Champion of Cyrodiil was a 8-foot tall Nord, mouth dripping with fire and sword dripping with blood.

No, wait! She was a khajiiti priestess, a beacon of hope to all Tamriel!

Nah, man, I heard he was a dark elf from the ashlands. A hunter. Eyes that can see through your very heart, and arrows to pierce it!

I would bet 200 years later, no one quite remembers who the Champion of Cyrodiil was. Only his deeds. Or at least, that's how the games seem it play it out, as far as the players are those folks claiming to know the Heroes' real identities.

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Funny if the Eternal Champion was Jauffre. Poor old bat, he never gets any rest.

Bethesda has been very careful not to imply the heroes were any specific race/gender.

The 200 year time gap could easily explain why everyone forgot what the CoC really was.

You two are also forgetting one critical thing, the hero was actually Martin, not the Champion of Cyrodiil. The CoC was only Martin's right hand man at best.

Lets see

The CoC
-Brought the amulet to Jauffre
-Saved Kavatch and found the heir
-Infiltrated the Mythic Dawn cult and stole the Mysterium Xarxes
-Found the great welkind stone, the great sigil stone, the armor of Talos, and some item of the daedra
-Rallied the cities in aid of Bruma
-Closed many of the Oblivion Gates
-Went into paradise and killed Mankar in his own realm to reclaim the amulet
-Protected Martin until he could get to the temple of the One


Martin
-Opend a portal to Paradise
-broke a stone to summon akatosh


I think the CoC was the real hero.

yet Martin will be remember because HE saved Tamriel from Dagon, not the CoC. Its not as if the counts would acknowledged the only reason they sent help to Bruma was because of a lone traveler, and since he did most of those things alone with no real witness other than two or three people its not like everyone would know of his deads. Martin however, defeated Dagon in the middle of the Imperial City where everyone could see.

edit: Even at Bruma is was Martin who led the charge.

Akatosh defeated Dagon in the middle of the city, Martin was merely a flesh puppet for Akatosh to come through



Furthermore it doesn't matter who is remembered, it matters who actually did it.

Also
-What about all the Counts and Countesses who know that the CoC was the one who closed the gates?
-All the people who know you closed the gates of each city?

Yet people saw Martin make the sacrifice.

Your logic makes no sense. It doesn't matter what you did if no one witnessed it. You may call yourself a hero, but the world didn't see it, they saw Martin lead the charge at Bruma and saw Martin sacrifice himself to defeat Dagon. In the eyes of history and memory, Martin was the hero, and thats all that going to matter.

Actually Martin was a in enclosed Temple with relatively few people inside it.

Few saw him do anything, all they saw was a giant flaming dragon coming out of the temple, the public was just told he did it.



I think more people saw you go into all the Oblivion gates and close them, including the Great Gate, then actually saw Martin do his thing.

Also im sure the Hero of Kavatch, the closer of the Oblivion gates that threatened the cities, and The Divine Crusader who slew Umaril would go down in history.

The Agent of Daggerfall isn't even mentioned at the slightest bit, and (s)he did more than the CoC. Reason, the Agent was a lone person who did all these things, with the only real witnesses being lords, nobles and members of the Blades, like in OB.

No one saw the CoC do anything, other than act as Martin's bodyguard. However, everyone saw Martin charge head first with the armies formed at Bruma, and make the sacrifice to bring Akatosh and defeat Mehrunes Dagon. Even if no one witnesses it, hearing stories of Martin enter the Temple of the One and suddenly Akatosh appeared would be enough. Like I said, to the people, Martin was the hero, not the CoC. The CoC will be forgotten like the EC and The Agent.

Also, no one was there to witness the gate close, except in Kvatch.

He was seen going into the temple, an avatar of Akatosh came out (no more Martin) and the only one left was you. Martins deeds were well publicized and seen where as the Champions were not. For instance, the quest where you save the Knights of the Thorn fellow and close the Oblivion Gate, the Knights are credited for the closing of the gate. Not you. All in all, the CoC was doomed to be forgotten from the get go.

Really? Because I specifically remember the people of cheydenhall, including the count, thanking me for closing the gate that threatened the city.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Cheydinhal_Heir_Saved!, who cares what they say when the Provinces press claims otherwise and reaches more eyes and ears than a few thank yous.

I remember people only knowing me as the savior of Kvatch, and while the count knows I really saved the town, he wants to credit his son and his knights.

i remember people in each and every town thanking me for closing the gates that threatened their city.

Though in that case, everyone also saw the CoC charge into the great gate, alone, and then the gates closure soon afterwards with the Champion victorious. Even though Martin was acting as a leader in that battle, The Champion was the one immortalized as savior by the people of Bruma.

We can agree that CoC is the hero in the Battle of Bruma, but which would they remember more as the generation past by? Which story would be easily amused to the youngling? A random adventurer they erect a statue in the middle of some snowy town just because he went in the Oblivion gate (which I would bet it would be destroyed or forgotten as the year progress, not to mention the guard of Bruma knows how to close the Oblivion gate themselves) or a bastard son of the Emperor that turn to Akatosh, bitten Dagon neck, stop the Oblivion invasion, and have became a giant statue in the capital city?

Haha, oh martin you. I sometimes joke that he and the CoC were one and the same person. After like 200 years, wouldn't be so farfetched if the people fused them into one folk hero. Hero of Kvatch? Survivors suffered too much shellshock to realize he snuck out of the chapel.

hmm.
In a literary sense, I'd say the CoC and Mankar Camoran were the main actors.
But yeah, when it came down to the big guns, it was Martin and Dagon, mudwrestling across half the Nibenay Valley.

You joke, but y'know that's gonna happen. Then via mythic forces, they actually will fuse together.

CoC who? Oh, you mean Emperor Martin. Yeah, my great uncle was at Kvatch when he freed the city in nothing but a flimsy gray robe.

Ugh. I just can't get over the use of Martin as the name . Ol' Emperor Marty Septim.

I half expect one of the Skyrim Jarls to be named Jeff.

Blame the Colovians. They're Cyrodiil's leading producers of blandness.

If there is a dragon-god, Marty'll get a [censored]in' posthumous name, like say, Martinus or Dracosospes.

Minions never get credit in the long term. Think about it, when kings had assassins kill their rivals, history books say "king bill had him killed." When wars are won, people say "king jake won the day." Not the soldiers or the commanders, but the politicians, unless the commander has a great stage presence and is set up as a hero.

So while Bruma may remember another hero, Ocato and the Council are sure to use Martin as a heroic character to try and keep the Empire together, at least for a few more days. In the Infernal City, Martin is mentioned as famous for being a hero-king, and Attrebus knows no more about how the gate at Kvatch was closed beyond "it was closed somehow, by entering it." Not who did it or why. See? Minions like the CoC do not get credit.

Now, as the divine crusader he may be remembered, but he will be so as Pelinal reborn, just like the Nerevarine is remembered as Nerevar reborn rather than for who they were. As Sheogorath he will be remembered as Sheogorath.

It's a less TES-specific thought, but it could also be said that the qualities that make a hero (not necessarily the saves-people, sacrifices-self type, either, but the sword & sorcery no-compromises ass-kicker variety as well) are incompatible with sticking around, explaining oneself, or staying alive. Both in a mythic/metaphysical sense and otherwise. And as has already been said, the hero is not the person, and the deed is not the history recorded, even in cases when it is recorded accurately.

The heroes' ambiguity is necessary in any case, but I think it'd be very appropriate even if the opportunity were there to explain more about them. The not knowing makes them infinitely more interesting.

As a minor note, the citizens of Bruma do immortalize the CoC in stone, as a sculpture. Someone will remember him/her. But likely only specialized scholars on the matter. The earlier reference from Greg Keyes' novels is the best evidence of the CoC's relative obscurity in regards to the Oblivion Crisis.