[REL] SDR - Sneaking Detection Recalibrated - series 8 : IV - Oblivion

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:15 am

I'm curious to hear about these details.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:31 pm

There were three side effects to the new SDR system:

1. How fast you are moving impacts detection.

2. The Journeyman perk of weightless boots was removed

3. The Expert perk of no penalties for running was removed

I felt obligated to replace the perks with new ones.

The new Journeyman perk allows you to bypass tripwires and pressure plates perk, which you can only do when walking while sneaking.

The Expert perk had to be tied to running in some way. But I didn't want it to be too limiting. I had Running Revised w/ Fatigue at the time, and came up with the idea of Sprinting not being possible while sneaking at the same time.

I popped open the hood of several running mods to look at the mechanics and found a couple of things:

1. I couldn't figure out a way of incorporating any of the current mods into the SDR scheme to know when the player was sprinting or not.

2. When taken to an extreme Attribute / Skill levels, the running mechanics were totally out of whack, especially when sprinting.

3. Since your speed significantly impacts how much noise you make, the logical choice was to incorporate new rules for running/sprinting/movement into SDR

4. Although some of the changes applied to everyone, others only applied to the player. My philosophy is "If the player can do it, so should everyone else."

Up until the 8.x.x series, I've only included sprinting, fatigue from sprinting, and minor tweaks to running speed. In the process of revising for 8, there were a couple of things I decided:

1. If I expanded the running features into a complete set, it would save me an .esp slot.

2. I could modify all the movement rates / fatigue rates for movement into algorithms that were more realistic.

3. I could take advantage of new OBSE features to make all of these features more efficient.

4. I could expand many of the changes (such as sprinting and backwards running speeds) to apply to NPCs as well, which would add some balance.

So yes, I *could* make it a separate mod. But I consider the revised movement features to be a natural and integral offshoot of the whole SDR concept. So I would use it. And having all that programming in a separate mod would be less efficient than keeping it in SDR, for both programming and performance reasons.

Also, they work. And they work well. I'd rather modify/cut other features first.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:54 am

Have you thinked about replacing the apprentice perk? (Do you call that a perk? It simply increase the sneak attack multiplier, but every sneak perk from apprentice to master do the same, if configured).

Some ideas:

- Decrease the chances of being detected after a sneak attack

- Reduce noise from falling

- Better view with Night-eye (less tunnel effect)

- You can jump while sneaking (if you think about it, it's not that easy jump while crouched!) <-- My favourite one

- You can run while sneaking (you can only walk as novice! LOL!)

- You can get permanent invisibility once a day with the One Ring... no that's a bit unbalancing!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:41 am

You have a good point about the sneak attack multipliers since they now extend throughout all mastery levels. Hmmm.

- Decrease the chances of being detected after a sneak attack

Maybe - but that happens naturally as your sneak skill improves

- Reduce noise from falling

Too complicated. In fact, I'm dumping the whole landing / splashing idea because it's not working as well as I thought and reduces performance.

- Better view with Night-eye (less tunnel effect)

I think of it is a physiological thing (besides, people can already turn off the tunnel vision if they want)

- You can jump while sneaking (if you think about it, it's not that easy jump while crouched!) <-- My favourite one

Not sure how to do that.

- You can run while sneaking (you can only walk as novice! LOL!)

Bwahahaha - very very very tempting. (see below)

- You can get permanent invisibility once a day with the One Ring... no that's a bit unbalancing!

Ummm no. But very amusing.

Of all of them, I like the idea of not being able to run while sneaking until you are an apprentice:

1. It makes sense in terms of stealth progression. You gotta learn to walk before you can run.

2. I have the know-how to do it.

3. It will force people to make tough decisions early on in terms of what they want to specialize in and how they strategize.

4. Although it will probably piss people off, just like everything else it can be turned off.

I like it. :evil:

UPDATE:

And done. It'll be in the next release. Thanks for the suggestion!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:27 am

Guess what I stumbled across?

The game setting that determines how often detection checks are made!

For whatever reason, it never made it to the CS wiki. I have added a page for it: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php?title=FDetectionTimerSetting

The default is .3 seconds. I'm going to test what it's like at .5 seconds.

P.S. How the hell have I managed to work on this mod for so freaking long and not know about this?!!!!!

:bonk:

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:37 am

Sounds like that could potentially help performance immensely, can't wait to see the results.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:20 am

What are you using to measure the impact of individual scripts?

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:00 am

There is a plugin call Runtime Script Profiler. I use that plus a database that I created to break down all the data.

It's not perfect by any means, but it's good enough to provide a reasonable estimate. I actually made a slight miscalculation, and the true percentage is under 50%.

The Actor token script currently eats up between 31% and 35% (Not including sub-scripts). If I put in an early return, it still eats up around 27%. So I think the sheer size of it and the fact that there are so many actors that have it is an issue.

There are some features that only NPCs use, so what I may do is create two separate tokens. One for NPCS and another for Creatures. That will help a little.

I've also figured out which part of the Actor token script leads to the crash. But I still have to narrow it down further.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:53 am

The one i know of is http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/41863/?.

After you finish playing, run xedit and you'll see "Log anolyzer" under the "Other" tab in the context menu when you right click on an .esp.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:32 am

Great... Thank you!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:35 am

Fyi, all times are in ms, and they are the sum total of the script plus all subscripts. Scripts are listed by form ID number. Each ========== represents a frame break and the total time per frame. You can either show all scripts or filter them by mod index.

Let's say you have three scripts. A calls B once and B calls C three times. It would look like this:
C .001
C .002
C .001
B .014
A .125

B's actual time is .010
A's actual time is .111

TES Edit doesn't do the math for you though like that. That's why I created my own anolayzer that is customized to SDR's setup.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:44 pm

Got it... thanks, saebel!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:16 am

How is the rewrite coming along?

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:57 am

Slowly. I've been getting StackHash crashes thathe kick in within a few minutes of game play, and it doesn't appear to be SDR related.

Been dealing with RL as well. Going to take some more stabs at it later tonight and on Sunday.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:17 am

I'm sorry to hear that... Good luck with everything!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:25 am

Thanks for continuus work on this, hope you will succed with all your plans for that mod.

And hope that you will succeed in your RL endeavours as well :-)

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:29 pm

I think I've resolved the crashing. Between OSR, more heap, and rebooting the Oblivion.ini, I haven't had any crashes yet. Back to testing and refining the system.

I have fixed one bug for the next release in which NPCs with chameleon of 100+ were totally visible. Amazing how that works when you leave out one line of code (sigh).

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:10 am

If you wouldn't mind sharing, what settings for OSR and moreheap helped with your stability. I couldn't get moreheap to play nice and gave up on it. It's probably a bit system dependent, but it would be worth giving it another chance.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:27 am

Well, I didn't spend a whole lot of time wandering around, so I can't be 100 % sure this will work.

For OSR, I turned off fps management, turned on heap replacment and chose heap option 1. For more heap, I set both values to 1024.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: I'm still getting stack hash crashes. No idea why.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:38 am

Are you testing http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php?title=FDetectionTimerSetting? Just curious.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:55 am

Yes. I have been using it at .5 seconds. I'm sure it is helping at some level, but I still get performance hits whenever I hit certain spots in OCR towns. It all comes back to the scripting and the fact that the actor token scripts are called every frame and that they have lots of lines of code. I've been experimenting with various options.

One thought I had was to move the SM Combat Hide scripting out of the main NPC actor token script and move it to a separate token that only gets added to NPCs under specific conditions and removes itself when those conditions are no longer met. The vast majority of people the player meets in towns/villages would never get the token because they would rarely meet the conditions. I am thinking that all guards, those below a certain disposition to the character and anyone attacked by the character. And of course, SMCH feature would have to be active in the first place.

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:59 am

Updates:

- I'm still getting stack hash crashes (with or without SDR installed)

- Found some function scripts that were causing bloat with undestroyed string variables

- Applied new SM Combat tweak where that feature has been moved out of the NPC token to its own separate token.

Been using Cheydinhal as my testing ground (OCR, Unique Landscapes, Better Cities, tons of graphics overhauls, TIE, MOO, etc.):

- without SDR I'm getting fps rates of anywhere from 21 to 45 fps, mostly in the mid-20s to low 30s.

- with SDR, I'm ranging from 11 to 29 fps, mostly in the high teens to low 20s.

- on average, I'm losing about 17 fps with SDR installed.

Active Mod Files:

Spoiler

00  Oblivion.esm01  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.34]02  Tamrielic Ingredients.esm03  Open Cities Resources.esm  [Version 4.1.5]04  Harvest[Containers].esm05  Better Cities Resources.esm  [Version 5.5.3]06  bookplacing.esm  [Version 2.0]07  Fundament.esm  [Version ision]08  Knights - Revelation.esm09  SDR.esm  [Version 8.2.0]0A  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.4.5]0B  UOPS Additional Changes.esp0C  DLCShiveringIsles.esp0D  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.5.3]++  USIPS Additional Changes.esp0E  Better Cities .esp0F  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.35]10  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.35]++  ImprovedWater.esp11  Rainbows.esp12  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.35]13  AkaviriBattleCat.esp14  Book Jackets Oblivion.esp15  Book Jackets Oblivion - BP.esp16  Chapel Tithe.esp17  ImprovedSigns.esp18  Camping.esp19  Q - More and Moldy Ingredients v1.1.esp1A  Reznod_Mannequin.esp1B  Skyrim Ingredients.esp1C  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.4.3]1D  GOSH Region Ambiance.esp1E  GOSH.esp1F  BookTrackerOBSE.esp20  DarNifiedUI Config Addon.esp21  Lava Does Fire Damage.esp22  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.9.3]23  Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp  [Version 3.9.3]24  Enhanced Hotkeys.esp  [Version 2.3.1]25  DLCHorseArmor.esp26  DLCOrrery.esp27  DLCVileLair.esp28  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp29  DLCSpellTomes.esp**  Book Jackets DLC.esp**  GrimbotsSpellTomes.esp++  MaleBodyReplacerV5.esp2A  ACCCGR SI.esp**  RTFemaleReplacerV12.esp2B  Wood Bows and Leather Armors.esp2C  Slof's Horses Base.esp2D  Slof's Extra Horses.esp2E  kuerteeHorseCommands.esp2F  DLCThievesDen.esp++  Harvest[Containers] - Vanilla.esp++  Harvest[Containers] - SI.esp30  TIE.esp  [Version 1.50]31  Tamrielic_Ingredients.esp32  Cyrodiil transportation network OC.esp33  OC+CTN Patch.esp34  EM_CompInnsleeping.esp  [Version 0.9]35  Trade and Commerce.esp36  Trade and Commerce Update.esp37  EMBridgeHouse.esp38  Fighters Guild Quests.esp39  Kvatch Rebuilt.esp  [Version 3.0]3A  OCR + Kvatch Rebuilt Patch.esp  [Version 4.0]3B  Kvatch Rebuilt Weather Patch.esp3C  OldCrowInn.esp  [Version 5.5.0]3D  LetThePeopleDrink.esp  [Version 2.6]3E  Mages Guild Quests.esp3F  Nascosto Isles 3.esp40  All Natural - 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Reclaiming Sancre Tor.esp  [Version 5.5.0]CC  Better Cities IC Waterfront FPS Patch.esp  [Version 5.5.1a]++  Better Cities - TIE Restricted Area.esp  [Version 5.5.0]CD  Better Imperial City - Blood & Mud patch.esp  [Version 5.5.0]CE  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp  [Version 5.3.0]CF  No More Annoying Comments.esp**  [GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp++  kuerteeEffectDrainShaderInitialGlowOnly.esp**  bgMagicEVShader.esp  [Version 1.7EV]D0  bgMagicLightningbolt.esp**  ROC - OCReborn Road Record.esp++  Harvest Containers Filter patch for mods.esp  [Version 1.00]**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 1.35]**  TIE Weapon + Armor Filter.espD1  Bashed Patch, 0.espD2  bgMagicEVNoSorting.espD3  Maskar's Oblivion Overhaul.esp  [Version 4.3.1]D4  RenGuardOverhaul_PatchForSDR.espD5  SDR_Detect Life Shader Patch [Oblivion].esp  [Version 5.0.0]D6  SDR_Trip Wire Pressure Plate Patch [Oblivion].esp  [Version 8.1.0]D7  Saebels GUI Tweaks.esp

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:02 am

Happy Christmas all.

Despite the stack hash crashes, I have managed to make some decent progress in improving performance.

However, I am definitely reaching burnout and running out of time due to other things on the horizon. I will do my best through the weekend. At which point I will have to just call it.

I will then update the documentation and release the new version, preferably before the new year. After which I must only focus on bug fixes and mod compatibility patches.

Off to do Xmasy stuff with fam. Hope your holidays are pleasant and looking forward to the new year!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:01 am

I'm looking forward to trying the result, saebel... Best of luck with it.

And a very merry Christmas to you!

» Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:54 pm

I've got a couple questions. I upgraded to 8.1.2, and I didn't find a SDR_Tweaks.ini file, so I had to make one myself (it's in the Data/SDR/ini folder). I've got these settings in it:

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsAutoNighteye 0 ; {1}

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsAllowBlindness 0; 0 disables

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsFadeWhileSneakingPlayer 0 ; {1}

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsDetectLifeUseCustomShaders 0 ; {1}

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsMovementRevamped 0 ; {3}, 0 disables.

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsSAttackMultOpt 0 ; SDR: 1 / Obv: 0

SetNumericGameSetting iSDRsPressurePlatePerk 0 ; SDR: 1 / Obv: 0

But I keep getting an error message about blindness and/or dynamic nighteye still being active, the detect life shaders use OBlivion's "pink cloud", and I've got fading when I'm sneaking. What gives? Did I do something wrong?