I just think if we can all come to an idea of the definitive solution to this actually surprising thread (I didn't think this topic i thought of would be so popular amongst this forum) and send the team of bethesda our solution and if it doesnt end up being brought into the game, make it a mod

No it isn't, it's insulting to say such a thing is challenging, when you get a shopping list and have to go shopping is that challenging? no! it's trivial, what Morrowind does when it provides vague dialog is make a trivial thing seem "challenging" when really it's only hard because your gimped, and no amount of skill from your part will make it easier, following directions is so easy an ant can do it, but if those directions are vague, than nothing you can do will make them not vague, this is not a challenge, it's just time consuming. How in the world can you feel a sense of accomplishment for something which amounts to you being lucky?



No it wasn't, please don't tell me you would find something like that intellectual stimulating. That quest is a beautiful example of why it is not challenging:

when you get into that dungeon, you can go two ways, you can turn right or left.

Turn Left, and you'll spend maybe 5-10min, searching for the box, and that's only because of the enemies.

Turn Right, and you'll waste whatever amount of time it will take you to give up searching for it in that direction and get back and go the other way.

Notice how your success is absolutely, completely, depending on that one choice, which is complete luck, you have two directions and 50/50 chance of being lucky, and spend no time on that quest, or being unlucky and waste a ton of time.



About the same? the dragonclaw is marked on your map from the start of the quest, and once you've found the dragonclaw, the quest marker disappears and it tells you to consult the messengers diary to find the next landmark.

You are most certainly entitled to your opinions but to be honest most people in this thread aren't agreeing with it, nor am I except on the lifting the vale part in which it does tell you to consult your diary. Its that very quest that makes it anything like the style Morrowind uses, and thats what a lot of people here are agreeing with.

I absolutely loathe the lack of instruction in Morrowind. Hate it. Despise it.

There is nothing at all fun about being told "go in the general vicinity of this five-storey building" just to find a specific person. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, Morrowind does not give you much direction at all. If NPCs gave specific directions that you had to remember, then I could live with it. As it is, you very rarely actually receive the luxury of that at all. Usually it's "Oh, that person can be found in this location"/"Oh this place is somewhere north". That's it. And the location often turns out to be sprawling and confusing. It's not fun. Walking around in circles for ages, just to talk to one person or find a cave is boring. I feel no sense of satisfaction upon finally finding them, just mere relief that I can progress to the next objective. If I have half-an-hour of free time to play the game, then I want to actually play the game. Not play hide-and-seek. I find Morrowind's quests very boring most of the time, simply because most of them give you no direction at all. If it was the odd quest that left me all on my own, I probably wouldn't be bothered. It's way too much when it's just about every single one though. I loathe that I spend more time looking around, than actually doing anything. Personally, that is not why I play games; I'm sure I'm not alone in having this opinion.

While the moving stalker-markers of Oblivion were grossly unrealistic, I would greatly prefer them in the absence of receiving specific help (e.g. "such and such can be found here, at such and such a time. Go this way, then that way to get there"), which is the preferable option. As for marking a location? I don't see anything unrealistic about someone telling you to do something, and then marking the location on your map. It's the very least they can do if I decide to take the time to help them.

Not too fussed about having to seek out obscure Daedric shrines or whatever entirely on your own though. That part actually does make some logical sense. Being told "you must do this for me" and receiving no help whatsoever does not.

I think it would be good if we could receive a map marker, but not initially, for example, we need to find the place, the quest only names it and gives vague detections, after that you can go search for the place, or you can go to a cartographer, buy a map, and than ask around in town whether someone may know where the place is exactly, and if you are lucky and located the right NPC, be that a towns ranger, or a scholar, or just a random hunter who happened to know the region, he or she can point out the location on your map. This way finding things will require some effort, but you will have an option of a "hint" if you got completely confused. Some of us (my self included) ARE navigational idiots But oblivion made it way to easy.

Actually it's not a waste of time, it's time well spend. Why? Because there's most likely enemies and you can practice your skills by fighting them, and there might be some good loot.
But if you really just want the quest done, then it's a waste of time.

I see that some people like to think in extremes and adhere to a sense of belief that things are 'either-or'. I've also deleted some pointless messages which were simple flamebait, attempts at derailing, or did not contribute to an otherwise very decent running thread.

So please people, let's keep this decent and without snarky one-liners

Also, please bear in mind that even though Morrowind had its flaws (faulty directions for one), it did come with a http://www.uesp.net/morrow/files/mwmap_bump.jpeg paper map. Most if not all caves and structures were marked visibly. Some were hard to make out, but I still have very fond memories of having a small magnifying glass next to my map. That, combined with my little paper notebook and pencil gave me a real sense of adventure. :read:


Greetz,

Milt

Oblivion's quest compass was stupid, but Morrowind's directions svcked. I'm not sure why people like getting lost, it's the most frustrating thing in the game for me.

I didn't get that map on my Morrowind GOTY edition and that makes mee sad.
I got some freaking Ubisoft exclusive edition.

Agreed, the concept of possibly getting lost can lead the player to more interesting location leading to possible rare items etc or other quests

Sounds like what I got too. 4 CDs, no manual, no map. svcks.

I much preferred Morrowind's way of travelling and exploration. Yes, I don't like quick travel, and yes, I use it. But it's one of those things that you really don't want to use, but because it's there, you have to use it, because it really weighs down on actually travelling. Not to mention there wasn't particularly anything interesting in Oblivion's landscape anyway, as most of it was tress and generic caves and dungeons.

Same goes for markers, really. My quest is to find something, but I've already found it before I've even set off, according to the marker. The fact is, I liked getting lost. It did me more good than bad, I even found extra loot because of it. Now in Oblivion, there is hardly any incentive to explore the land other than where you're supposed to go. Generic dungeons, lack of interesting landscapes and finally the game allows me to instantly travel either to where I'm supposed to go or some place next to it, if I haven't found the location yet. Then you have quest markers, which makes the rest of the dungeon completely pointless, the main focus is the object in that dungeon, but players are just going to head straight for that and run for the exit. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in having a dialogue explaining where something is if the marker is just going to tell you.

All Skyrim needs to do is make things a little more unique. Less generic stuff, lose the markers in search quests, lose quick travelling and bring back other forms of travel that actually cost you money (so then you're at least taking a penalty for quick travelling), then we're in business!

Yep.

You have just supported the whole concept of what I have said in the original post and that is good to see your views are very similar to my own, I totally agree with everything you have said. Less generic stuff and more variety and like I also said bring in some of that skyrim culture

As you say yourself, the value is in what your agenda is, actually the puzzle box quest isn't the worst I've encountered, it was just an example, at least you can only go as wrong as the dungeon allows, it's worse when your outside.

they need to do what they did in assassins creed, an arrow points to the general area of something but thats it

Well thank you (for the whole very decent thread bit) and well yes morrowind may have had flaws in some of the directional sections but every game has a flaw, but it wasnt an overly problematic one and I sadly didnt get the game of the year edition one, so I only have the standard edition with its maps, which I did as well use a magnifying glass and saw how to get to specific places or see where the next point could be. And as you also said it gives you that sense of adventure instead of this whole oblivion spoon feeding you and taking your hand along the way.

It's almost impossible to see anything you are searching for in Morrowind, due to it's blurness without epic HD changes. That is why I'd want to know the general direction of my quest mark, but not pin point accurately. Meaning, both Morrowind AND Oblivion did it wrong.

About fast travel: I think only from major cities/minor settlements to major cities/minor settlements would be great. Meaning that you can fast travel, but only as close to the nearest city/settlement.

Actually an arrow pointing in general direction of quest sound a good idea.
I don't mind being lost every now and then. It's part of the game in my opinion. After all it's all about adventuring.

I have been thinking and what is the likeliness that this idea is already in placed or going to be implemented? it seems this has become quite noticed. I decided to look at my morrowind map now and noticed all the little details which were additional helpful hints on where special ruins lay. I think the map itself is very well constructed in the game in putting the points of interest in yellow/white boxes. It may not of had a compass in regards to its quest structures but it didnt have a map marker. I do recall a couple of my mates saying they couldn't get into Morrowind having played Oblivion first. And that to me is a bad move, they would simply start off with the fast travel system for the jump to jump around the map.

This thread has been rather interesting showing many views and many unique concepts in the means of solving this issue or improving it, it comes down to the main thing is that most of the people who have contributed to this thread are in favour of an adapted morrowind, direction quest structure. To me as well as I have said many times it is the way forward for Skyrim, depending on its climates and general environment, should we be able to know where a cave is if its in the snowy mountains with gale force winds?,...no but this is what oblivion would have done.

Jesus christ, this map would have solved most of my gripes, why in the world did we not just have this in game.

That worked well in assasins creed and if implemented effectively it would work nicely as a means of finding items in caves, finding actual locations etc. That is something I would consider using to as it could end up being very effective in the whole adventuring process.

i want morrowinds system but added to it i want a basic compass that does NOT show everything nearby. i dont mind map markers placed by an npc but i dont want any directions inside of a cave at all. as long as the objects arent hidden away behind some ridiculous location like a rock on the floor (glenvar castle mod) :verymad: and relatively easy to find i want to have to search for it.

Directions were not vague. I played morrowind in the first year of high school, when my english was something awful, but i easyly managed to finish the main quest and fighters, mages guilds and the morang tong.
I didn't used any guides, because my internet was a 56K.

I want difficulty options to turn off quest markers and compass POI markers independently. Reason is for the times when I do get completely stuck, it's a nice cheat to fallback on. There is no GM available that can give you the subtle cues you need. I.e. when you miss something and spend hours searching through the wrong dungeon

For compass POI markers, it could also be skill based. Based on perception or lore/knowledge that instinctively tells you that "over there would be an awesome place for a mine", but as you get closer, the marker fades away until it snaps back fully when at the entrance, so it doesn't take away the manual search. You may even have to backtrack a little to get the direction back, based on a better "overview of things".