This. It is definitely babying the player. Also when I say "it destroys every ounce of discovery" that's not an opinion, that's a fact. You may not believe it, but how it following a compass marker to a ruin discovering it? You can't discover something you already know is there. As far as Morrowind's local map goes, I can't really say for sure because I don't quite remember, but I can almost say for a fact the markers on Morrowind's map didn't baby/hand hold little children as much as Oblivion did. Unless you're confusing what I am calling local map. Local map as in the detailed close up map, not the world map that shows the entire location(those map markers are fine and even encouraged as long as they don't show you where everything is)


This is one of my fondest memories from morrowind as well. I loved checking the map for secrets. It even had red x's to mark certain locations, and when I was at a high enough level to reach them I would.

im reminded of my buddy who gave up playing morrowind on his xbox cause he couldnt find casius caius house. he didnt want to bother to read simple directions so he didnt get very far after that. some people are simply incapable of or are too lazy to read a simple note with easy to follow directions and need a bright green neon arrow that points exactly to where they should go. why should people who can and are willing to figure this stuff out on their own be penalized for other peoples shortcomings.

I did not have that detailed map by hand, but on the other hand I do not remember ever being frustrated because of the lack of directions in Morrowind, and I really loved the sense of adventure and detective that finding and completing the quests gave me.

OK, I thought about the problem that some people do really love that compass arrow.

I think that the polygon idea is perfect so whenever you are outside of that polygon, an arrow on the compass can direct you toward the center of that polygon, and whenever you go inside that polygon, the arrow can disappear and a sign or green light or something like that can inform you that you are inside the general quest area.

This way those who are used to the Oblivion's method feel at home, but all the fun is not lost and they still have to search the area inside the polygon, and depending on the quest giver the area can be tight or wide, for better or worse addresses.

And the whole system can be toggle-able for Morrowind purists.

The solution to this whole topic is so simple, it should never have been something worth debating in the first place. Just have quest markers and fast travel be OPTIONS that can be turned on or off during character creation. That way, everyone is happy. I fail to see whats so hard about that concept...

Of course that would mean Bethesda would have to add location and item descriptions when quest are given, and if the map is Oblivion's size or larger some form of city to cityt fast travel would have to be added. Basically the game would need to be a whole lot more like Morrowind... but yet would still play just like Oblivion if you chose.

I can think of only one instance where I simply couldnt find a place.

The directions were: 'The alas tomb near molag mar', it was from one of the daedric quests.

Found it a few games later when I was aimlessly wandering through the wilderniss though:)

I much preferred the Morrowind system. The detailed map and the in-game directions allowed for a much more immersive experience. Though I think it would be best if I simply had an option to turn directions on or off. For those times you really get stuck:)
Like when I couldnt find Assu, because I simply overlooked it, thought it was just a rockface, turned out to have a little path and a cave entrance.

I could probably finish it without directions at all, the difference between adequate directions and vague directions is the amount of time you waste.

I remember a quest where the directions were to go between some hills, and morrowind is literally all hills. Actually sometimes you were better off not listening to directions at all, and just remember the name, and find it through various in game guides.

They should use the Risen map system. You have a big map that's pretty vague but covers the whole game world http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091221152922/risen/images/7/71/Map-risen-island.jpgand you can acquire more detailed area maps (http://upload.worldofplayers.de/files4/risen%20map.jpg ,ignore the numbers). Quest locations are shown as a coloured dot or field on the map.

Yes we have mentioned this as a solution earlier on but we have also mentioned many other methods of finding a solution including all new quest finding and location finding mechanics that mainly have branched from Morrowind and very very few being Oblivion.

Heres what I would do.

Well for discovering areas anyway and quest related things.

At the beginning of the game you have no map markers. In certain cities and towns you can go to a book store or some kind of cartographer or general store and buy a map of the local area. Different types of maps for points of interest, roads, cities, villages, etc. Once you have the certain map it labels the area on your world map but you cannot travel to it through fast travel if this option is still available.

More exspensive and rare maps would lead to ruins and dungeons with probably nice loot and treasure.

But of course the best treasure is not found on maps and found simply through wandering and rumor by gossip and word of mouth.


Also we should have older and new maps. Somes maps would be outdated and show a town where it once was but nothing is left there but a memory and charred wood.

This would be my way of discovering things.

This is rather interesting it reminds me of the assassin creed games especiall 2 and brotherhood, you purchase maps to find local treasure and feathers etc

I wouldn't really settle for either way. Morrowind and Oblivion did exploration and fas ttravel very differently and both where appealing in their own way.

In Morrowind you spent lots of time exploring dungeons to find a specific item, because of this many dungeons were unique in style and design. But you also spent a lot of time being lost, confused and frustrated because you simply couldn't find that one item. Or maybe you were traveling the ashlands looking for the entrance to a very specific dungeon - you had two journal pages of directions to guide you. But really, a dot on a map would have been easier.

Oblivion solved these problems by including map markers and such. But they made it too easy and it took away some of the fun of exploring. Also, Oblivions dungeons weren't as varied in design and layout as the ones in Morrowind - they were all very similar. Also in Oblivion your map markers wouldn't only tell you the location of the dungeon, but also the exact location of the object you looked for. That pretty much kills the whole concept of 'exploring'

Definition of exploration: to travel/search for the purpose of discovery

As far as fast travel goes I think Oblivion did well. Morrowind worked fine, but it's kinda dump that I was limited to 4 destinations. Traveling from Dagon Fel to Ebonheart by boat took forever, because I constantly had to load a cell where I would spend less than 2 seconds. However Morrowind was nicely varied in fast travel availability. There was almost no options for fast travel in the remote parts of Vvardenfell, like the ashlands or Molag Amur region - it really felt very remote and not just like someones backyard. Oblivion enabled you to fast travel to everything. It was overused but otherwise fine. If you limited the fast travel options to civilized areas like cities and settlements then it would not only make sense but also give room for some remote areas, this adding a nice balance.

After this topic being a rather popular one amongst the forum goers here, I believe we have all created many new mechanics for solving this problem and some of them even if not in the actual game when its out could be used to created very drastic mods.

I'd prefer a more moderate approach my self. I wouldn't mind quest markers if they weren't so specific, I remember in Morrowind not being able to find a place I had to go based on the very vague directions I got and ended up spending about 4 hours doing a grid search just to find the place. The problem with Oblivion is that the quest markers are far too specific, even down to the very Item you need to look for, and for me this take away a lot of the fun. Same thing goes for Fast Travel.

No markers whatsoever please.

To use yet another example from Morrowind... The Dragonbone Curaiss. I came across this dungeon completely by accident. It's one seriously hidden dungeon that contains one of the best items in the game, but there's no way you'd find it unless by chance, or if you were a hardcoe explorer. The feeling of excitement when I found this insanely out of the way dungeon combined with the feeling of accomplishment when I finally battled through it and got the curaiss is unrivalled by anything Oblivion offered in terms of dicovery.

I'm surprised to see so many folks commenting on problems with MW's directions. I played that game a few times thru and never experienced that. I would reference my map, journal and make sure I asked questions until I thought I had the direction. I played thru the MQ, the three great houses, MG, TG and MT. Not saying I'm better than anyone, just an observation. I would want to toggle any type of compass like Oblivion off. However, this thread shows that some players don't want to spend time discovering new things and just want to jump in the action and play. To that end, I almost think Beth would have to leave the compass in for those players that are a bit more, instant gratification, types. Not putting that down, I use a microwave too. However, when it comes to my games and it's my turn to escape to another land, I like to take my time and explore. Some of the most satisfying moments in gaming were the things I had to work at a bit. Point and click just doesn't do it for me.

I liked the Quest Markers in Oblivion, even to the point of having it point me to the exact location in the room.

It still was kind of hard for me sometimes to figure out exactly what to click. If I want the "experience" of it, I can slow-travel all the way across the continent following the green arrow.

It helped me a lot because I'd get turned around out in the wilderness fighting something and all directions looked the same, so sometime I'd be going backwards without realizng it.

I totally liked the markers and it didn't break immersion for me. On the contary, in "the game world" my guy wouldn't get as lost as me, the controller, would.

And on the other hand, I also remember getting lost in Morrowind and not knowing which town I needed to go to, because, you know...

I agree with this because I had stumbled across this as well along with the lord mail, randomly finding a doorway with lock lvl 100 and you open it and get it from a guy inside. No markers, luck and the persistence of looking around for items etc

Yes, My first incounter with that curiass is like this:

When diving in the water to find "unmarked" underwater places and treasures, I stumbled on that underwater grotto, which proved that I had to find potions or spells to be able to breath underwater for long durations, so I had to return later when I learned the spell.

And when I searched through it, I reached to that submerged forgotten Dwemer ruin, and entered it to fight in the half-submerged passageways, and found those keys to enter deeper levels step by step, and the extremely hard final confrontation with that Dwemer centurion, which was a real threat for my low level character.

I had to return later when I was better prepared, and killed that automaton, and opened the container to find the cuirass, which was one of the greatest moment that I remember till now, and I wore it for quite a long time after that.

Yes, I want extensive underwater details and exploration, which I sorely missed in Oblivion. Like that submerged daedric shrine to the button of the ocean, and the quest that the the head of the god's statue head gave you.

The Morrowind way was too vague, I'd prefer if you got a circle on your map to mark the general location of an item or person, like a semi-transparent red circle say 500-100ft in diameter, unless you are looking for a person in a city, then it should just bring you to him or make the circle alot smaller. As to fast travel, I'd prefer the incorporate realistic fast travel (carriages, boats, teleportation, etc.) but also add in direct-to-discovered-location fast travel as a toggle-able feature.

I think I know where abouts your talking, I remember going along so many routes and finding so much gear for my character and that was the main thing that made it so exciting as a game the sense of discovery. I remember when I had never played and TES game before and my brother got an xbox with morrowind and I played it and when I first discovered Balmora I was like wow, this game is so cool and then so many weeks later finding the tribal camps and telling them your the neveraine, it was so much fun to discover so many things.

And the bloody trails and screams for mercy...
That will definitely aid us in our quest!

Does this have any relevance to our actual thread? Anyways I was playing Oblivion today when I happened to do the lifting the vale quest again, this lightened my opinion because it allowed me to do a similar discovery mechanic from Morrowind or along those lines, following directions but it felt like that was to short till you were then told to follow the point.

Well as we have learned of some of the new details surrounding Skyrim well we have been told about fast travel, did they specifically state is it Oblivion fast travel or morrowind (silt strider) we have been told about dynamic quests etc but nothing to the means of a compass. Anybodys views changed or do people still prefer their previous games attempts.

Not to single you out, just in general... But yeah well - fortunately this isn't a 'Morrowind' remake - seriously it gets tiring reading what 'Morrowind' zealots demand 'Skyrim' should be and contain. I have to wonder sometimes why you 'Morrowind' fans even come to the 'Skyrim' forum - it's quite obvious the moment this game ships - every single one of you will be in here, bashing it for this and bashing it for that.. Can't you at least wait until Bethesda releases more information on 'Skyrim' or gameplay videos that show the game mechanics in action.

if you dont like the marker then why dont you just not look at the compass?