No, not really. It's called an opinion, and it's a very subjective thing.



I don't want my hand held, I want to play a game and have my gameplay time consist of actually doing something instead of running around and looking for a place. Morrowind's side quests were pretty shallow and the only reason I ever spend more time doing anything in Morrowind is because I'm just trying to find where I'm going, and it's the same, tedious process over and over again. What is so stimulating about wasting time just looking for the quest location instead of doing the quest? Oblivion had to rely on actual quest content; Morrowind relied on directions and finding your way to a repetitive quest. I'll take the former, any day. When I want to explore, I go out into the wilderness and explore. When I want to do a quest, I expect to be able to do a quest.

I already posted, in a former post, how I would like somewhat of a mix, with being shown directly where to go for the quest location, such as a dungeon, but then having to search the entire thing for the item/person I'm looking for, if there is a dungeon, involved, but I expect to play a game when I buy a game, not mindnumbingly run around just to get to a boring quest.

"imersive" players can still do that in Oblivion.

Yeah, that is very understandable from your point of view. For me however, running around and looking for a place is doing something. I never did have any difficulty following npc directions as long as I completed quests serially vis-a-vis simultaneously.

imo we should be givin the marker on the ma ONLY if they give a specific place. I think that if they remove fast travel that we will discover more AND at the same time easily get to where we need to go. I liked morrowinds ways in some aspects, BUT sometimes if i was on a hard quest it would take me several hours to find the location and sometimes i never found the location i needed to go too. They want to make the game last...not take your whole life to find one place.

1. Take fast travel away
2. Only mark maps when given a specific location to go too.
3. Dont give markers in a map unless given specific spot in the cave/mine/etc.

I think this will even it out for the most part. Or, if all else fails they can just have an option to turn it on or off.

Yet what did you like about it? What's the difference between running around that rock or another rock just to kill something or retrieve something with little variation between the quests or the process getting to them?

Walking around the whole game world is just tedious, but the fast-travel system should be more limited, like in Morrowind where you had to use spells, magic items, and travel services in the towns.

About the quest markers... I'd have nothing against having the general location maked on my map, as long as I'd have to find the specific location myself.

Quests in Morrowind tended to be generic, stultifying and monotonous. I think that everyone can agree on that. However, this issue is quit separate from the necessity of orienteering & spatial ratiocination in Morrowind or any other game vis-a-vis torpid visual and spatial aids such as quest-markers. I also appreciate games that are not too player-centric. The fact that my character must traipse through the wilderness to complete a quest instead of being behind "just another rock" lends a sense of verisimilitude to the game, which is a beneficial attribute. Morrowind also had more variation in transportation methods than did Oblivion.

Yet the travelling is still the same thing, and the transportation network was also the same thing with a different skin (What's the difference between a siltstrider and a boat, for example?) that didn't help make the game feel less tedious. Going through the wilderness is still a requirement in Oblivion, but in Oblivion, you know where you have to go. Going through the wilderness in Morrowind is... well, what's the point? Why does it inspire a sense of discovery? Why is it a worthy way to spend gameplay time, and more importantly to me, the few hours I may get per night to play a game? If we were to bring a system of self discovery into TES V, why should it be just like Morrowind', whose landscape and process just repeated itself while providing, to me, anyway, frustration instead of enjoyment? If this is done, shouldn't the process be made a little less time consuming and/or more varied and interesting?

Actually I tried to quote the guy above you, but your post popped in between and I miss-clicked. But it still stands. Apparently running around aimlessly is fun for a lot of people and Oblivion took that away, so it’s just natural that people want to have it back.
Nobody would complain if Bethesda gave the player both options but they just cut it in favor of “easy playing”.

Traveling is instantaneous, sure, but the different veneers (boats, silt striders, Mages Guild guides), as I said before, lend a sense of verisimilitude to the game. Traveling through the wilderness/unknown unaided is the quintessence of discovery. If Christopher Columbus had a quest marker on Hispaniola in his UI, then would he have really been discovering the Americas for Europeans? Morrowind was also much more geographically diverse than Oblivion too. I think that your problems (monotony/dilatory nature of travel) could really be assuaged by improved environments. An increased draw distance would probably be most effective. More expansive terrain (I remember that the countryside of Vvardenfell seemed to be quite anfractuous and claustrophobic) would ameliorate these problems as well. Not only would they be aesthetically pleasing, but they would make distant landmarks easier to see.

It’s called suspense of disbelieve. If you think that Morrowind’s fast travel and Oblivion’s were the same, it can’t be helped. But I, and apparently a lot of other people, could imagine a flourishing travel service throughout Vvardenfell (even though you were always the only customer) while instant teleportation in Oblivion and the lack of any travel services just didn’t work.
The point of going through the wildness in Morrowind? Not level scaled treasures? Not level scaled enemies? Hidden handmade locations? Various other hand placed things? If you were frustrated with the running around, again, that can’t be helped. But that’s why I would welcome both travel systems to be implemented. I am not saying to get rid of something that other people liked, but I also expect that they don’t get rid of something I liked.

Just make sure the directions are written down in the journal.

I don't remember if they were in MW or not, but I remember a few times where I'd be in the middle of a quest, save, and be unable to continue with the game for a week or so. By the time I'd get back, I'd've forgotten where I was going...

This may, now that I think of it, be user error.

In MW, do you remember looking for the puzzle box and the gratification when you finally found it? You never got that same feeling in O, b/c all you had to do was follow the red arrow, until it went green and then pull up your map and the green arrow marked the spot. It took that sense of accomplishment away. I'd really like to see a return to the way MW handled it.

morrowind system. if they do make the compass togglable then they HAVE to have the npcs give you directions. i would settle for the compass guiding you to the entrance of the cave ONLY if you had been shown by a specific npc and not just some rumor. it definitely needs to be disabled when you get into the cave.

@Pisa........i dont know how many times i walked right by that stupid puzzle box. however, it was certainly better than just waltzing in and oh look the green arrow is pointing right at it.

In Oblivion, I got a sense of "I actually enjoy the quest." and not just a sense of "Where the hell is that thing?". Fun gameplay over a supposed sense of accomplishment after an hour or two is more important to me.

While I enjoyed Ob. At some point with questing it felt I was just going through the motions. I didn't have to find anything. Ever. Kinda boring.

That sense of "where the hell is that thing", yes exactly, I want to feel that, looking for some book hidden cave or tomb you heard about through a rumor, how and where the hell do you find that in an entire mountain range? And so the adventure begins.

I interpret as a sense of mystery, exploration of a vast unknown countryside, of inquisitiveness. The point I think people are making is that that was taken from them in oblivion. This also reduced the sense of scale of the world. I think with the ability to fast travel from any point impacted the world negatively. The use of mark/recall/transport/divine intervention was a better way to do it. However I don't mind fast travel, and used it. But with the questing some of the adventuring aspect removed.

I still don't see it. I think fast-travel assisted the sense of adventuring. In Morrowind, getting around was so tedious that I never bothered exploring much. It became a chore and I just had to quit with the quests. With Oblivion, I go off from time to time into the wilderness just for the sake of exploration and mix in some non-frustrating questing. I would really prefer some toggleable options if this debate won't cease because I just can't stand adventuring in Morrowind. :shrug:

If like in Oblivion, the quest designers "Suppose" that there is a "Fast Travel" system, and "GPS marker" that "Everyone" has to use, because there is no "Alternative", then they do not feel that they have to give "Adequate" direction, and they do not feel that they have to think about the "Route" that the players have to find and use, so the end result would be that they "Suppose" that just "Marking" a point in the map and giving the quest target a "GPS marker" does the job and skip "Giving the adequate directions by the quest giver", and "Supplying enough noticeable landmarks and direction helpers in the route".

Which results that you can not say that it is optional, just do not use it, because if not used, you have nothing to rely on.

So the better option is if they want to supply fast travel and GPS markers, they should suppose that some people might not want to use them and give adequate original directions and route finding helpers.

As opposed to Seti, I really loved to use my tracking skills, and look around to notice small things that would click a direction in my mind, so looking back at the quest notes to find a line that could help me with continuing , and in doing so, and without the teleportation mechanism supplied by Oblivion's fast travel, I would find a lot of small details and occasional surprises in the route that would not be found otherwise.

You have to walk a direction, + you have to look around keenly for signs, = you find a lot of new things in the way.

Part of what made MW exploring so tedious was the speed and fatigue set-up. Just as level scaling interfered in OB.
Something to keep in mind.

with oblivion I just explored, that auto pilot straight to destinations questing felt contrary to the fundamental aspect/ tenant of past tes games-sandbox rpg- it made the quests seem a bit too linear to me. it was just following arrows at the end of the day. I tried not ever looking, which saved it to some degree.

well the debate probably won't cease.. how long ago did MW come out 8 years? still going strong!

I think the system doesn't have to be a case or either or. As long as there isn't a quest marker for everything, in context it can be used, like if you are going on rumors, and don't have specific info for where you should be going, then that should be reflected in game, and some can be much easier and allow a straighter route, like someone actually marking the destination on your map.

at worse case have a 'cheat mode' to turn on magic arrows.

Agreed. The only possible marker I want, is an x or a circle on the world map. No markers or anything on the local map.

Also this seems like an excellent place to add that I don't want to see undiscovered ruins on my compass. How do I know it's there if I've never been there? They don't need to baby the players in this aspect. It destroy every little ounce of discovery in a game.

thats just a difference in play styles. you prefer more linear on rails games. it took me several games to go over most of cyrodil while i had explored most of morrowind on my first playthrough because i had to actually travel to those locations. also morrowind had fast travel it just made sense as in you had to use actual transportation. the quests in oblivion were as boring as you can possibly get. the only good quests were the DB quests and even some of those were contrived like the one in bruma. seriously just tell me that i have to kill the guy in an inconspicuous manner and let me figure it out. but no.......they tell you exactly when and exactly how to kill him..........how is that fun. most of the quests involved just looking at your minimap and then glancing up once in a while to slay some monster.

if you havent tried it at least once you have to try playing oblivion with the mod that removes internal map markers so that once you get inside of the cave or ruin you have to do the rest yourself. much more fun that way.

To you, it may destroy every once of discovery. To me, it's a staple tool. How is it babying to let a person know there is something interesting nearby?

Also, even Morrowind had markers on the local map. Why get rid of those?

I didn't like how the extremely wide range of the compass let us know the unknowable. I do still like the idea of map markers, but I would like them to be told, and not to show up on the compass.

I think the two could be hybrid-ized enough to where you are close enough to physically see a ruin-camp-fort-town that and 'undiscovered location' icon show up on the map, to keep track of them.

It assumes that you won't or can't find anything by yourself. another way to put it is hand holding. which is what you do with children when you cross the road.

I think if you aren't paying attention or really looking, then you probably should miss whatever is interesting there. And keen eye and thorough searching should be rewarded.