I came into this debate on one of my youtube videos with a mate the other day, we were expressing how the concept of self discovery is very bad in oblvion. You can find places of course but when your doing a quest, they tell you where it is and you obviously have to find it but its still indicated on your map. Where as in Morrowind it was so much harder to find places, you'd get very vague directions like 'go north then when you reach this place go south for a mile then you'll be there' and you have to struggle till you find it.

This can be taken one step further when its an item retrieval quest involving a cave in oblivion, they tell you where the cave is and mark it on your map, you get there and you enter. You look at your compass and you follow your way round to follow the green arrow to indicate where the item is (you've never seen this cave before, you've never seen the insides yet you know exactly where it is) , where as in TES 3 you don't get that which to me is much much better in every way, it makes the game longer and more challenging also increasing re-playability

I agree. In Morrowind you had to search the dungeon to find the item, but in Oblivion the quest marker told you exactly where it was. I liked the Morrowind way.

Morrowind's style of adventure was at least 20 times better than Oblivion's, because of this. You need to remember what your directions where. However, I think the compass should return, but with no red/green arrow to show where you need to be going.

I'd like something in between. If someone KNOWS where they are sending you, it only makes sense to "mark it on your map". Other times you should do more searching. But Bethesda, if you DO remove the quest markers, DO NOT hide important items in a small hole in the ceiling that is only 0,1 mm wide. :banghead:

Yer i get what your saying and morrowind done that sometimes and also to the above, yes put the compass there, maybe they could extend it more, you have to go locally around talking to gather info about its whereabouts rather then a marker/ said directions. You can do this in both elder scrolls but maybe it could be incorporated more.

This was the single most annoying aspect of otherwise so perfect game... :banghead:

Couldn't agree more. And it was so big joy when you finally wound the place.

The thing is it could take you hours, only for you to know it was only like 10 minutes away its cause you went round a whole mountain and got raided by bandits haha.

I've always found places quickly in Morrowind, the map really isn't that big and the vaguest of directions are still enough to find the place, bar one quest which I have in mind. The great thing about this method is that I found other interesting places on the way, where I then proceeded to scrap my plans and explore/loot the new areas found.

The title makes it sound like this thread is about discovering one's self through meditation or some [censored]. Didn't think that was ever a part of the TES game structure...or is it?

There's absolutely no reason not to keep features like fast travel and compass markers. There should simply be a an option to toggle off map/quest markers on the compass for adventurous sorts.

I have no problems at all with a marker on your map showing the cave/ruin/general location or even a compass leading you there. I did have a problem with the marker continuing on inside a cave I never visited and pointed me to the exact location of an item or person I needed to find (it even kept track of movement, like everything was implanted with a GPS personal locator or something).

So I'd vote for an in-between as it seems that nowadays nobody has a little book and pencil next to their computer anymore; nor the patience to actually explore :shakehead:

I started a new Morrowind game 3 days ago and the self discovery you talk about is great, it certainly creates a greater feeling of reward when you find/discover places and secret items.

I think they should remove Oblivion style quest target markers, but add yo your arsenal a Perception skill that when developed, should help you find things better in a smarter way, like compass blips, and occasional sparks over the target's place, and so on...

At higher level of perception, you can reach Oblivion level of accuracy when trying to find your target, but still with sparks, blobs, and other intuitive style marks.

I agree, the frustration of trying to find a place can make it that much more satisfying when you do. I don't want everything in the game to be easy.

Morrowind made me put myself in the role of my cool Ranger character, it made me feel like I was using some skills of tracking and stuff, so I'd love to see a return of discovery, to a limit of course. If people know where it is, they should mark it on your map, it just makes sense.

we are in skyrim now baby!
the only directions we get are the foot prints left by our prey!
YEAH SO DAM AMPED FOR THIS GAME

I completely agree , quest and place markers in oblibion ruined the overall gaming experience for me.
I hope they will return to the morrowind discovery system, it will be much harder but at least a dozen of times more interesting.

This is sadly true. If it is able to be toggled on/off they need to put directions in your quest notes. I'm replaying Oblivion and a quest I recently got (a mages guild one I think) didn't have directions, so I had to look around the map for a bit to find which direction I should head in. If there weren't map markers it would have been incredibly difficult.

I'm almost missing a poll here

But definitely, Morrowind "get directions and find it yourself"-system over the "arrow that always points you to the exact point of interest"-system... I also liked the fact that, in Morrowind, you didn't have all cities on the map from the beginning, you'd just have to learn about it from getting a quest that took you there or other word of mouth ways.

Obviously, if there hadn't been markers, there would have been directions in a quest like this...

Yeah it felt great to use Morrowinds map all the time to find things, felt like a real adventure; I always had the Morrowind map out on my desk for use but my Oblivion map has sadly never left its case

I'd like to see a compass etc that can be toggled, but it needs more explaining in the Journal for quest updates.

Some quests are pretty much impossible to do without the compass due to lack of an explanation of what you need to do or where you need to go next.

Sometimes I'd like the compass if I'm doing an annoying quest that I just want to finish and be done with, or if I'm totally stuck on something, especially given Oblivions tendancy for items to fall through floors or not be where they should be. The Skingrad steward that sells the Skingrad house is an example, where he sometimes fell through the bridge and dies or just fell through the floor completely and without the compass I'd be looking for him forever without knowing, but the compass shows where he was last and obviously died or whatever. Hopefully they will fix this issue in Skyrim, but the compass should definately stay but be toggled.

Fast travel should be toggled also, sometimes it's useful, like if I'm doing a return journey from somewhere and it really is pointless to just walk as the route is empty anyway. You can always opt not to use it.

I think it should instead be an option for a TES V version of "hardcoe mode", and inside of the TES V version of hardcoe mode, having it activated would make a player lose the quest arrow but keep the compass.

That, or have it as an option that can be disabled much like the reticule in Fallout 3/NV.

Remember, not everyone wants to play the game where we have to search every nook and cranny for an item, some people just want the depth and fun of the TES worlds. Having it as an option is the best possible choice.

you do know that there was something that acted like a compass in morrowind right? your mini-map in the upper left corner worked like one

They should mark where the cave is on your map but you should need to find it within the cave without a marker.

Increasing game length by dikeing around is one of the worst ways of increasing game length. I've hidden a word on the internet, try to find it, I guarantee it's gonna be the longest game you'll ever play.

It's not challenging either it's fake challenge, it's time consuming and nothing else, vague descriptions are so annoying, it's basically saying, "first go here and then get lucky.", you can be the smartest guy in the world, but you can't do [censored] because you can't magically get better descriptions. I hate things that just depend on luck, things where the difference between spending an hour searching for something, and spending 5 min. is luck.

EDIT: The green arrow was a little too much, but I think the issue is blown out of proportion, the arrow sometimes made it harder, it shows a direct route, and sometimes there isn't a direct route, and it will lead you in the wrong direction.