It really isn't that hard to level stuff up. You get thousands of gold over the course of normal gameplay, and the stuff you enchant sells for quite a bit. You can easily do it in the course of normal gameplay.

Wait, so the scientists at MIT and the Pentagon who develop new military weaponry have sudden urges to put them on and run over to Afghanistan to fight? There's a reason they went to school to train to make the stuff, not actually put it on and possibly get themselves killed.

What does this even mean?

Look, I'm not sure why you think you can 'argue' with this.

It reduces immersion for a lot of people. Period. That's how our brains work. Our brains work differently than your brain (surprise!). You can't say "no, it doesn't actually reduce your immersion" because that just isn't true. It doesn't reduce your immersion, but you are not us.

Well said.

Your Speechcraft skill has raised. You should rest and meditate on what you've learned.

It means that if you are role-playing a craftsman, most fantasy craftsman I've heard of don't exactly go around slaying everything in their path like Conan. If you are going to max out your blacksmithing skill and then decide to take everything you made and stomp all over the game, you're probably not role-playing very accurately.

The difficultysetting is an intentional and useful part of the game, I set it on expert. :shrug: What about it?

You're making assumptions on how I play the game, don't because you have but a general idea which fits on everyone here. And it doesn't even matter how I play because that does not remove the exploit and it leading to the forced avoidance from the game.

Since nobody has given an adequate argument, I'll go for it.

I think it's fine that Melee players have all the choice in the world to become insane gods among men in this game, but why not give that option to Magic users?

If you level Enchanting, Smithing, or Alchemy, there is no way you're going to be a god as a mage. It's not fair. It's not as fun. Particularly destruction mage.

Smithing/Enchanting/Alchemy is basically the Skyrim version of being Tony Stark.

You don't actually have the skill, but the suit makes up for you. Eventually, you do become good with it though.

The problem is, the actual level output of this is equivalent to someone mastering heavy armour, blocking, and swords (that is to say, level 31 is achieved by both characters that max out these skills alone, and only about 20 perks need to be spent in all the trees). Its just weird that the game recognizes that its a matter of who has the coolest toys, not the greatest skill. I seem to recall a legend of Musashi winning with a boat oar. Maximum skill should be roughly (+/- 50%) equivalent to gear in a setting like this. It isn't though.

I have a character that I make an overpowered dragon born who can kill just by looking at something. Its fun sometimes to just be an all powerful tank running around catching people on fire with your dragon breath. But I also have a save file that has a roleplay game on Master. I play it realistic. And on Master you have to think about how to go about killing a group of soldiers. You can still be a tank. But only if you play it that way. An elder scrolls game will always be broken to some people because you can play the game how you want to.

It's already been said how people can do what they want, it's not an MMO, et cetera.

Here's my view. I played through 55 hours on Master difficulty as a mage. For all of those hours, until well after the College of Winterhold quests were done, I never once touched Enchanting or Smithing. So when I heard about it at level 35 I decided to try it out, and 10 hours of gameplay later I had myself a set of -100% magicka cost armor (still no Smithing perks though, I'm not impressed with it terribly).

I consider it my own little reward for being the Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold and toughing it out legitimately for 35 levels. And you know what? The game is still pushing difficulty. I just had to fight hoards of Draugr Scourge and Draugr Deathlords in a Companions quest. Would I have been able to do it without the magicka cost reduction? Yeah. Was it absolutely awesome and fun when I jumped up on a table at the top of a flight of stairs and unleashed hell on charging enemies? Of course it was!

In a perfect game the option of becoming a walking God should not exist at all. For myself, god-like PCs completely take all the fun and challenge out of any game. I don't have a problem with all possible builds not having an equivalent utility -- in fact I would imagine that that level of balancing in TES games would be extremely difficult to achieve. Theoretically, all builds arriving at the same utility is equivalent to there only being one build.

It doesn't affect roleplay in the slightest, you simply have to decide what you are roleplaying. Yes, a warrior who learns smithing, enchanting and alchemy is the uber build. But that is not really a realistic roleplay build. Surely your warrior would be roleplaying ie concentrating on, an armor, weapon and physical defenses. I have gone the warrior route, which admittedly has involved maxing out smithing (as it fits with being a warrior) but I am also maxing out 2hand and heavy armor. I am currently deciding if I go the retribution route with an offensive or healing spell 4th skill, or a pure warrior and probably go archery for my 4th skill.

Roleplay is entirely what you make of it. You want to roleplay a pure warrior rather than go BiS then you can do it, and you can beat the game.




There is a big difference between too tempting to pick up and too effective to pick up. And whilst the game will be more of a challenge without the BiS skills it is not unplayable. And that is kind of the point. TES games give you the freedom to choose your path. If you absolutely, positively must take the BiS build every time then that is up to you. Personally I will mix it up a bit. I might make an iron man uber toon one day but for now I am making a warrior, and putting skills into alchemy and enchanting just doesn't make sense.

Its hard to roleplay when it turns out that there is indeed a money tree you can plant in your backyard (alchemy), and that money can indeed buy happiness (all materials for perfect crafting can be purchased). Its a clear issue with how the world is set up. Sure, you can cover your eyes and pretend like its not there, but isn't that silly? I respect the notion of roleplaying and being immersed in your character, but it is the job of the game to set the stage, to present the world to you. If that world contains flaws in it, the experience is damaged.

Yes, you may be roleplaying that ultimate warrior type, but you eventually will come to the realization that to be a better warrior, you will have to hit the forge/enchanting table.

Omg, not this s**t again ...

Some people have to learn, that it's the job of the developer to create a system, which is balanced in a way, that the player (who naturally tries to get mighty) can just play, without having to step out of the game by thinking "oh, I shouldn't use this, because then it gets too easy, and the game is less fun".

That said, I think Skyrim is at least decently balanced ... a lot better than Oblivion ever was.
Of course it has its exploits ...

OMG you genuinely confuse me, who exactly are you competing with? This is not an MMORPG. I am wondering if all the balance discussions, and massive popularity of WoW, have had an affect and people feel they have to go BiS cookie cutter or go home. In WoW it matters if one class is vastly superior to another because you are directly competing with people of that class, either for raid spots or in PvP.

Skyrim is single player. If a mage is weaker than a warrior it is irrelevant because your mage will never go up against my warrior. There is only a problem if your chosen toon is too weak to complete the game (and you didn't do something really silly, like a lockpicking, speech, pickpocket, alchemist for example).

There is no feeling that your should have rolled the FotM class and spec because you never compete against anyone who did roll that class and spec.

I don't care if they let people run around like demigods.
Just let me have a challenge without purposefully gimping myself 6 ways from Sunday.

Add a "difficulty" that suggests a fair game.
I don't want to play the game saying, well I could buy that, or make this, or perk that, or cast this, but the game will be so boringly easy so I won't do it.
I want the option to have a dynamic gaming experience.

People want options, they demand options, but only the options they like.

To everyone complaining about self-gimping, don't use them. Show some control and discipline. If you want to exploit alchemy/enchanting, good. I don't care. If you don't want to use it, good. I don't care. But by demandning they be removed, you're cutting (yet more) content out of the game, precisely the thing people are whining about already... ironically, most of the same people now whining about some skills being OP when abused.

It's a purely single player game, and there's > 100 threads about this topic already, and no one cares. Bethesda aren't going to remove it, as it would make almost every amulet and half the enchanted armours totally redundant to higher level characters... cutting yet MORE out of the game. See previous paragraph for whining about this.

Please, stop making threads about this topic, before I neck myself.

This has no relevance to what I wrote in my post.

Not even close. More like the truck driver who likes to repair his own rig isn't going to refuse to change his oil because it makes his truck run too smoothly. The hunter who can make is own composite bow isn't going to carve a bow from a tree limb because a composit bow would be too accurate. The jeweler who makes his own jewelry and discovers that diamonds turn the greatest profit isn't going to stock only costume jewelry because he would make too much money. Oh, and the MIT scientist exploring radioactive materials who learns that metal can help block radiation isn't going to rely on wood walls because it might extend his lifespan too long.

If you choose to play a warrior that makes his own gear (which I did, before I knew about the alchemy/enchanting/smithing synergy) the natural way to play, keeping in character, isn't to avoid using fortify enchants and potions, it is to use them. If I were to play realistically, my character would keep the Krosis mask in the chest near his alchemy station and put it on whenever he's going to brew some potions. He would make and drink potions that improve his enchanting and make a special set of work clothes that improve his smithing. He would also make potions that improve his smithing. Fortunately, I happened to vist the forums and discovered I should deliberately avoid foritfy smithing enchantments and potions and instead of using all that iron ore and leather to make and sell enchanted weapons, I should store them in a chest for all eternity (okay, I should probably sell them), or the game will be too easy. Of course by making these choices, I sacrificed roleplaying in favor of preserving blalance in the hack and slash portion of the game.

Why? I have 1000s of gold and have it from clearing dungeons and selling my loot. There is a finite number of things you can buy, and whilst it is tempting, especially early on when you have little money, to make gold from alchemy or armor you most certainly don't need to. TBH I find it more fun do go and tear a dungeon apart for money than to play the alchemist or smith game.

Yes it does. You have to be roleplaying an absolute idiot to not realize that in the world of Skyrim as its presented, to be a stronger warrior, its simply better to practice enchanting/alchemy. It may be entirely counter to what you normally do, but for some crazy reason, it actually works.

So any video game player should look up all of the cheat codes to every game and use them all every time, because they can.
That's what broken skills feel like.

LOL on the blondes.
I don't know that I understand the question though. If you mean, could it be possible to make the game so that those who want to min/max can still have a challenge and yet those who want to become gods can also feel that way and pwn everything around them? Sure, I suppose Bethesda could have made Master level difficulty even harder to take into account the possibility of people using the "alchemy/enchant/smithing" route. But in that scenario, I believe that Bethesda would have needed to make any build at say, level 40/50 insanely powerful, regardless of the difficulty level... which make those who want to RP a non-godlike character SOL. At least the way it's set up now, you *can* avoid the crafting skills and play it "straight" and not become OP.

I don't know, given what they have to work with (us) I think Bethesda did a good job of making it so that folks can make gods and be happy or make characters who travel through the classic fantasy growth progression and become quite powerful.

I may have completely missed what you were getting at though, so please, if I have let me know.

As for the genius smith/alchemist/enchanter who recognizes who his alchemy can assist him in his other endeavors, and so on, well, that person would be sort of like Ironman I guess. A genius with a suit of armor that kicks the hell out of everything thrown at him... like a boss!

Just saying, it seems reasonable to me in a fantasy setting that a genius should be able to create "a suit of armor" that makes him/her virtually invincible. And I'm surprised that anyone's surprised. It's been done before... :whistling:

This is not true. The truck driver example works because being able to do your own repairs fits with your job. The hunter example fails completely, and demonstrates the utter idiocy of the "go BiS or get out" argument. I would claim that most hunters would feel a better use of their time would be to learn to shoot more accurately and to be more stealthy. They wouldn't spend their time learning how to make the perfect camo suit or the perfect bow or gun. They would leave that to the experts and use their increasing skill as a hunter to fund better gear to further improve their earnings.

I know a lot of hunters and I don't know a single one of them who decided that the best way to improve their hunting was to go to fashion school to learn to make a better camo suit, or become a gun smith so they could make a better rifle.

All the QQers need do is to think sensibly about how an RPG works. It is what you make it. And if you feel you have to go BiS then go BiS. But if you want to RP your RPG then think about how many warriors are likely to have spent time in the chemistry lab improving their alchemy when they could have been learning to use their weapons more effectively.