Self Gimping : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:25 am

I personally feel that, in my opinion, you all feel too much for the TES series to give it a serious criticism. We come to expect so much from The Elder Scrolls that now we have a game that went backwards, we have no idea whatsoever about how to react to it.

It seems everyone has a different opinion, it's broken, it isn't, it's an RPG, fundamentally changed, and so on and so forth. I think that we all expected far too much and still expect far too much, this thread is essentially centered on the concept of roleplaying and how we perceive the game itself.

For example, some say maxing enchanting/smithing right off the hop is self destructive as it overpowers the player. From a different perspective, an artisan whom has spent 100 percent of their time investing in their respective trades should be rewarded with powerful equipment, they are very talented smiths, correct? But then common sense says the game should always be challenging, whereas it could be you just missing the challenge. Or a fundamentally broken mechanic/one nobody is used to is implemented, things change and everyone is looking for the answers.

Skyrim created so many questions from the previous installment, and even more from morrowind. Although, there are absolutely no proper answers. The right one would be, play the flipping game as you please, it's a single player game in a world connected through the internet.

Consumerism is self destructive, and so is anolytical breakdowns of games that you should be enjoying.. Right now.

Well said!

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:46 pm

That's the problem. A 2hand, heavy armor warrior who slays dragons is going to rely on enchanted gear and potions to stay alive. Thus, the skills that best fit the Role I wish to Play in the Game are 2H, HA, smithing, enchanting and alchemy. In order to stay in character and avoid those skills I have to come up with a reason why my character would choose not to use those skills. Unless your character is an idiot, suicidally-insane, or incapable of using smithing/enchanting/alchemy, any warrior dragon slayer would take the time to become adept at those skills. If you could hire some to enchant your gear, that might be another matter.

Now, this wouldn't have been a problem if I had visited the forums before I started playing (and it won't be a problem if decide to reroll). Unfortunately, I had already used the forge in Riverwood, and the alchemy and enchanting tables in Whiterun before I discovered this. Now I have to deliberately ignore in-game knowledge possessed by my character in order to avoid breaking the game.

Most "Warriors" may rely on Enchanted gear, but they aren't going to be doing the enchanting themselves.

Every build works in this game. Even complete H2H builds work.

Keep your head in the sand Bethesda apologist.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:12 am

Edit: wrong thread! :facepalm:

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:42 am

hit lvl 24 and i felt like bleh...so i made a new char with the intent of only using (ill,con,alt) but there are times when im forced to use a wep or DES spell...my 1st char felt way OP with DES build and i ended up using the same spell over n over...

making a true warlock i planned to only use curses,fear,char,spawn pet,raise dead, with no weps or DES spells no healing at all...but now i wonder how i will fight dragons or other casters that kill my pet or make it attack me...then i cant charm,fear...i dont even feel right using scrolls, warlocks dont use bows so im gonna have to find a way to gimp myself i guess

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:34 am

Its obvious that no-one can really convince each other that their point of view is correct. Its clear that it comes down to your personal approach to the game.

Think about what skills represent and their place in the world. If the argument that its sensible for a warrior to try to become the most powerful they can be, and its terribly simple for them to do so ignores the premise that the world is full of warriors who don't... and why not?
The reason is that they are. not. special. You're are special. For whatever roleplaying reasons you wish to attribute it to which are really the sideproduct of making it a playable game, the player is capable of advancement above and beyond the capabilities of the world in a timeframe that is unrealistic to true development of skills.

Skills themselves represent the most inept, to the pinnacle of human achievement. The flaw is the juxtaposition of presenting a believable world, and the ability to present a heros journey in a timeframe so the game doesn't take 30 years in real time to complete and THEN balance it so that the player does not feel artificially hindered in progression. Its not possible to do that... no matter what rules you place on a game.

A skill ranked between 0-100 by definition represents the progress to the ultimate achievement in human ability. The fact that a human whom was the power, to learn skills at such a rate is capable of reaching the PINNACLE of human achievement in more than one skill is by itself.. a game breaking mechanic. Roleplaying games.. are flawed in this respect. Any tabletop roleplayer will know fine well the arguments about certain powers being overpowered compared to others, and most of the time, know the exact method in any particular game, to create a character who is unbalanced powerwise with the rest of the party. The phrase powergaming, and min/maxing originated with tabletop, not computer games.

Oddly, enough.. you know what the solution is in 99% of these instances? A party of roleplayers, and GM tend to inflict social pressure, and often in game pressure upon the powergamer to .. not be "munchkin". A munchkin is the sort of player who will deliberately focus their character to abuse the system of the game so that they can walk through killing everything with no repercussions barring social constraints because they outbalance everything around them. This is not always deliberate, but a mindset to "beat the game". Sound familiar?
Munchkins are the bane of any roleplaying game. fact.

With a single player RPG.. social constraints are removed, and "munchkins" are free to do so without repercussion, but it defeats the object of a roleplaying game, and I'm sorry, but I've played this game enough to know that its not easy to max it out without effort, its not HARD, don't get me wrong but you have to do it deliberately, buying every ounce of iron and moving on to the next source for the sole purpose of maxing it out. If you did it by accident, truly... then its a shame, but its not the game. The game wasn't designed for what you did by accident, and fixing it simply inconveniences other players to suit your own needs.

In the absence of an intelligent, sentient GM, its not possible to truly balance standard players and munchkins playing the same game. Maybe in the future a system will develop, but for now, I don't see alternatives that allow the game to provide for everyone to enjoy it 100%, and less face it.. we are all having fun with the game, simply some of us are enjoying more than others, thats... normal.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:13 pm

In the absence of an intelligent, sentient GM, its not possible to truly balance standard players and munchkins playing the same game. Maybe in the future a system will develop, but for now, I don't see alternatives that allow the game to provide for everyone to enjoy it 100%, and less face it.. we are all having fun with the game, simply some of us are enjoying more than others, thats... normal.

Sure, true balance is not possible. But there is no reason for it to be so superior to a more "fluid" or standard method of play.

I'm not calling for it be made weaker than something else, I'm just asking that it be brought closer in line with other skills. As of now, it practically quadruples output from weapons and armour. Is there any difference between that our it only doubling output? No, there isn't, as even "normal" output is still sufficient to proceed through the game. But there is a difference in that knowing that X is super powerful causes players to force unnatural restrictions upon themselves. You call it role-playing, I call it unnecessary maschism. Roleplaying is not something as simple as picking a narrow background, a set of artificial restrictions upon yourself, and entering into the world. Its a matter of observing the world, and acting accordingly.

Pretending that the player character isn't dragonborn is like telling the GM in your P&P game that that encounter didn't happen, that this NPC actually is friendly to me, etc.

EDIT: Also, for just some background on how I found this, I do play a generalist type, and as such, I was having fun with blacksmithing (leveling it "normally" crafting higher end gear than iron daggers, so as to supplement what I wore), buying any mats (not just iron and leather) to craft whatever I could. After finding fortify smithing enchants, I thought I would give that a try, and then realized the synergy between alchemy and enchanting. And certainly, it is fun. I also don't mind playing a godlike character. My issue here is simply how much more powerful going this route is over going a more "standard" route. Its unreasonable that the toys (gear) are so significantly more powerful than the skills associated with said toys.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:34 am

OP is correct.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:17 am

But there is a difference in that knowing that X is super powerful causes players to force unnatural restrictions upon themselves. You call it role-playing, I call it unnecessary maschism. Roleplaying is not something as simple as picking a narrow background, a set of artificial restrictions upon yourself, and entering into the world. Its a matter of observing the world, and acting accordingly.

I have to disagree, knowing that X is super powerful, and not using it, does not enforce unnatural restriction. As my post stated, most roleplayers are aware of flaws in the game system they are using, and how to abuse it. Actually doing so is acting like a "munchkin"(as defined earlier). My argument is that without the social faux pas of a group to frown upon "munchkinitis", or a sentient intelligent GM, means there is no penalty for sitting and abusing a single skill to the exclusion of all others.

Without repeating my tl;dr post, 100 in a skill is a representation of the ultimate in mortal ability in a skill, and to combine the ultimate in mortal achievement with several other skills learnt to the ultimate in mortal achievement... naturally creates god like items. The premise that it should be more difficult to increase only punishes players who occasionally use it, and with a wide open and interesting world.. have better things to do than enact a MMO type grind on a skill.

Personally I think its a brilliant, although unintended representation of the Daedalus & Icarus myth, that to seek to exult yourself too high, will only lead to your doom.

Pretending that the player character isn't dragonborn is like telling the GM in your P&P game that that encounter didn't happen, that this NPC actually is friendly to me, etc.

I have to confess, I'm not sure what this has to do with my earlier post.. I would agree with the sentiment, but not sure what it proves in context of the issue.

EDIT: Also, for just some background on how I found this, I do play a generalist type, and as such, I was having fun with blacksmithing (leveling it "normally" crafting higher end gear than iron daggers, so as to supplement what I wore), buying any mats (not just iron and leather) to craft whatever I could. After finding fortify smithing enchants, I thought I would give that a try, and then realized the synergy between alchemy and enchanting. And certainly, it is fun. I also don't mind playing a godlike character. My issue here is simply how much more powerful going this route is over going a more "standard" route. Its unreasonable that the toys (gear) are so significantly more powerful than the skills associated with said toys.

I would say this proves my point more than disproves it. You, as a player are "Special", capable of reaching godlike levels of skill.. not in just one, but in several skills. In terms of Self-Gimping, once you've done this, and realised that you made yourself overpowered, you want it to be more difficult to achieve, to the detriment of those that do not automatically seek the most powerful combination they can find. Icarus syndrome again.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:14 pm

"My New Year's resolution is that I am going to use the stairs instead of elevators"
... goes into building..
"Damn it! They have elevators. Now I have to ride the elevator! The building broke my New Year's resolution"

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:35 am

Some comments here are really stupid.
A game is not there to practice self-control, it's there to have fun.

Having no reason to "get stronger" and "find better stuff" in an RPG is not fun. Having to actually not use the stuff you've found (or can do), because otherwise a lot of the game's mechanics/gameplay will simply become void, is terrible.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:30 am

TL:DR - it's not broken, it's how you choose to play. Min/Maxers will become Gods because that's how this game works.

The game is broken since there are so many glitches and bugs that prevent you from completing quests!

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:44 am

The game is broken since there are so many glitches and bugs that prevent you from completing quests!

As the topic of the thread and general discussion has nothing to do with bugs or glitches, I stick by my initial statement. If you have anything meaningful to this discussion to add, by all means, please do so. If you'd like to discuss glitches and bugs, there's a whole other forum for it.