I haven't seen this discussed on this forum yet so I made a thread about it. In Morrowind one of the things I liked most about it was how the game really didn't care how long it took you to go see Caius Cosades in Balmora to start the main quest, and even then how he would tell you if you were not a certain level to come back when you are more experienced. Then, when I first started up Oblivion, I felt like the game was rushing me into doing the main quest with the sense of urgency in the conversations with Baurus and Jauffre (which is realistic considering that Martin was in pretty great danger).

So, I'm curious about what you guys and gals hope the main story pacing will be like in Skyrim. Would you prefer a more laid back pacing to better define your character before doing the main quest or would you prefer the break neck sense of urgency pacing that Oblivion had? Please discuss.

In Morrowind you started out as a spy or a secret agent (more of a newly recruit) of the blades.

It doesn`t seem to be the case in Skyrim. It`s more action based. We know that you get to meet the dragons pretty early and you will be fighting gigantic mythical creatures rather than doing undercover work.

I sure hope it sort of never starts if you don't want it to. After that, if Alduin is comming, you shouldn't just be able to ignore it. But that should be many, many quests into the MQ story, before that we should be able to ignore it without feeling like the world is about to be destroyed.

Actually in Morrowind you started off as a prisoner getting released from a prison ship with orders to make your way to Balmora and see Caius Cosades. They didn't tell you to go immediately or really even seem to care if you went at all, so you could in effect never start the main quest if you didn't want to. Where as in Oblivion you were told to go to Weynon Priory immediately making it seem like it was urgent that you start the main quest.

Clarification: In Morrowind the main story pacing was laid back, in Oblivion it was urgent. Which style would you prefer for Skyrim or would you prefer they handled it in some other way?

Yes, I liked the total lack of narrative urgency in Morrowind, to-a-point. It was one of the most criticized points of Morrowind, that the Main Story arc, lacked a climactic sense of necessity to it. On the other side, Oblivion started off the narrative at 11, and kept it there for the whole game, and that didn't allow there to be any narrative contrast.

Going back to Morrowind, the logical point where the story should have escalated, is when you are cursed with Corprus, and they sort of did change the pacing and tone a little, as you transition from Caius Cosades to the Urshilaku wise-woman, but overall, the game never found a suitable level of necessity, with it's main story arc.

Oblivion on the other hand, never had the great pacing that Morrowind had, despite it's hiccups. There was no interlude style "Where am I, what's going on, and who are these people" moments. Because of that pacing, you never really got to know any of the main players either, as characters. Just when Martin starts to feel human, he turns into a dragon and explodes. There is also the issue in Oblivion, that, and not just the Main Story, but all the faction lines, feel very insulated against the rest of the world. While in Morrowind's story, you're get to delve into the Great House politics, some of the Fighter's and Mage's Guild stuff, among other things, all the primary quest structures in Oblivion keep everything segragated, so there's no feeling of worldly interaction. Think of the Ripple effect. You throw a pebble in a pond, and it sends waves across the entire surface. That was totally missing in Oblivion.


Anyway, I've gone on long enough.

Exactly! There should be a clear point in the story where it would seem like a neccesity to advance the main quest but it shouldn't be at the very beginning like it was in Oblivion. I would love to have a little time before feeling like I need to save the world to get to know the world and my character a little more. I would care more about saving a world I knew more about.

The first time I played the game I loved the urgency I felt as I left the sewers and went to deliver the amulet. It gave my character purpose and meaning. However, after probably 6 or 8 complete playthroughs I basically just deliver the amulet and completely ignore the main quest until such a time where it feels “right” to go to Kvatch and continue the story. Heck, I’ve played characters where I did every other quest in the game, looted every dungeon at least once, all the DLC including Shivering Isles and used the main quest as the grand finale of that toon’s adventures.

Initially, I expect Skyrim to pretty much be the same. Hopefully, I’ll experience that feeling that I must make haste as the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. (Personally, I love that!) But after a few times doing the main quest I’ll just settle in and play like I’m playing Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas now. Although I never felt that excitement with FNV like I did Oblivion and FO3.

Oblivion's pacing was a reaction to Morrowind, namely its failure to easily grab people into the game at the word 'go.' So they constructed a dramatic intro, a dramatic plot motivation, and a dramatic obvious next step that never ever let up until the MQ was finished for Oblivion. Which was a notable problem.

They really do need that initial grab effect (or rather, they're going to use it whether we want it or no) so this would be my ideal pacing:

1. Prisoner start, about to be executed, dragon attacks prison, player flees. Provides excitement, tension, gripping action, immediate encounter with the game's primary motivation, a la Oblivion's intro.
2. Prisoner finds some clue or plot advancement item while fleeing. Something as simple as a letter, a symbol, etc. But this secondary plot motivation would be reminiscent of Morrowind's instructions, something not entirely urgent and that doesn't make direct plot sense.
3. Along following the MQ, the player receives logical breaks where the MQ givers have no work available, or they tell the PC they need faction reputation or tell them to go out and explore. Like Caius's 'here's 200 drakes, go get more capable.'
4. When the MQ hits a certain critical mass, it jumps into Oblivion mode, slamming on the pedal and not letting up until the deed is done.

The combination of 1 and 2 will both give the player the sense of urgency to understand what's going on, while making the trail veiled enough to not make it automatically a matter of immediate pursuit. So they can have their action-packed gripping intro and motivation, while at the same time having the slow-paced approach to figuring out what to do with that urgency.

That is pretty much how I hope it will be. Like in Oblivion, if they had said something like "take some time for yourself and come back later" after you deliver Martin to Cloud Ruler and then they send you to Baurus in Imperial City, I think this would have been a good time for a break.

That's pretty good, and I think the whole "Dragon" Thing is more complimentary to decent pacing than Basically "The Armies of Hell are Invading".

Oblivion's antagonist, Oblivion itself, for the most part, was truly this unstoppable force, and we were introduced to it right from the start. Conversely, Morrowind's antagonist, Dagoth Ur and the Ash Vampires didn't come in until around the time you got Corprus.

With Dragons, you have a very interesting plot to explore. Why are the Dragons Here, but they, individually, or hell, even in groups, don't seem like this unstoppable monstrosity the same way the Hordes of Oblivion would. The next step, is making Alduin more or less rational. Dagoth Ur didn't so much seek to destroy the land of Morrowind, he sought to cast out the False tribunal Gods, and restore Morrowind to it's original glory as the Chimer experienced before the original battle at Red Mountain. At least, that's what he says. How Alduin will fit in, on the scale of crazy remains to be seen.

Jumping off to another game with good pacing, Mass Effect 1. The game starts off very similar in feel to Morrowind. There's this intro, where you're dumped into what amounts to your pre-hero career as a fairly typical Special Operations soldier. You're introduced to the Antagonist, and hints to the "Impending Doom" of the Reaper, without telling you what it really is.

After that, you're introduced to the Galaxy and the majority of the main players on the Citadel. The overall pace takes a shift down, while you gather allies and seek answers. When it's finally done, and you're free to roam the Galaxy, there still is no sense of extreme urgency, because the crushingly dire circumstances haven't been introduced yet. As far as you know, you're just tracking a single person, who is a great threat, but not a galaxy-eating threat. Mass Effect stays at this palatable pace for "As long as the player chooses" as you explore the key plot points, or wander off into the galaxy. Not until All the pieces of the puzzle are assembled, and the true gravity of the threat is revealed, does the game Kick-in to that Oblivion pace "Holy Sh*t we're gonna die, move your ass" at Ilos, and that's exactly the right point.

Where Oblivion starts at "Ilos" and Morrowind never gets passed "The Citadel", I'm hoping that Skyrim can find that pacing, though all told, I'd much rather have Morrowind's pace, than Oblivion's any day, for an open-world game.

Edit: The_ugly_guy_at_the_Store + Thatoneguy has to totally look like sockpuppeting, lol.

The way I see it is this.

You'll start out in prison and get taken to you'r execution when you are rescued and told to journey to see the Grey Beards.

At this point you are on you'r own. You can head out to see them and learn of you'r abilities or just hang out in town, go on some adventures and put the main quest off until you are good and ready. Just like an Elder Scrolls game should be.

The only thing I did when I started Oblivion was get rid of the amulet. After that I didn't touch the main quest for a long time. Maybe not or months.

By the time I got into the main quest it was Arch Mage Yoa to the rescue.

EDIT: If I had had the DLC for it at the time then they would have had a Mad God to deal with ta boot.

Personally, I would like to see it be a little more laid back. Of course, because it's a game that allows you to do things at your own pace, I didn't have to follow the main quest, and many times I would simply ignore it once I delivered the amulet to Jauffre. But it did give you a sense of urgency, so that by not following the main quest to the end, I felt a twinge of guilt, and realistically I should have been devoting all my time to the main quest. I did not care for that much urgency, because it gives one a sense of being restricted and having too many expectations being placed on you all at once.

I think the urgency should come in mid-way through the main quest. That way you don't feel pressured into doing the mainquest if you are RPing.
For instance I want to act like a simple hunter who is accumulating money to by better equipment. I will do the sidequests in my base town and slowly branch out when I think my character is prepared enough. Then when I'm a mid level character I will begin the main quest.

Urgency needs to be in the main quest but I don't think urgency should be placed upon you from the get go.
Pacing like the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion would be great.

I sincerely hope that there will be a series of triggers in the main quest, each one upping the sense of urgency, and more than anything, I sincerely hope that if the first trigger is not set off, there will be NO sign of the main quest at all - no Kvatch perpetually burning that I have to studiously ignore.

That's it, really. I don't mind the main quest grabbing me by the throat and dragging me along IF I choose to follow it - it's drama - there has to be a certain amount of that. But I don't want it nagging at me if I choose not to follow it and I sure as hell don't want to, again, have to metagame into ignoring the equivalent of an entire city on fire just to not do the main quest.

I thought you HAD to complete the main quest in Oblivion before you could go to Shivering Isles? That's what the gate keeper and everyone on the web always told me. I've never been to Shivering Isles because I never complete the main quest in...any of Beth's games. So I can go to Shivering Isles right away and if so how do i get the gate keeper to let me through without being the Champion of Cyrodiil?

Yep. You can go right at the beginning of the game if you want to. I wouldn't recommend it until level 20 or so though.

Morrowind: Look at this world, do whatver you want! Explore!

Oblivion: ZOMG CLOSE SHUT THE JAWS OF OBLIVION! DO IT NOW!

I prefer the Morrowind way.

Lol.


That was one of my biggest "petty" grievances.

And, with the overabundance of Oblivion gates, the constant changing of the sky from blue to red got beyond irritating.

I'd rather have an urgent set-up, and then at least act like there's multiple solutions to the presented problem. Obviously it can't be completely non-linear, but give us our threat and state its immediacy then let us be free to deal with the looming problem or go about the more leisurely things.

Mmm... yeah. That was another one. My character is walking down the road to Anvil and passes too close to an Oblivion gate, and next thing ya know, the entire sky, from horizon to horizon, is red and thundering. I always imagine somebody in Cheydinhal looking up and muttering "Damn I wish he'd stop walking by those things...."

First time I played Oblivion I hauled ass through the Priory, Kvatch etc etc. Second time I ignored the Priory till I was level 15 lol

But how? It won't let me(though i only tried once with a lvl 32 character with the main quest hanging in the middle of the Kvatch gate quest), the gate keeper says Sheograth will only let the Champion of Cyrodiil pass. I guess maybe I should go try it again on my current character and see what happens.

At the start, the MQ should be totally unurgent (yeah I just invented a word, deal with it.) The further you progress through the quest, the more urgent it should become. I hated how Oblivion throws you right into it, and there are really no opportunity for breaks. Morrowind did it better, although arguably it wasn't urgent enough in the later stages.

Very well put, and I wholeheartedly agree. I hated that Oblivion kind of threw you into the middle of this huge plot right away. It made it feel like wandering off to join a guild or something was just stupid seeing as the world was being invaded by Daedra. I think increasing the pace towards the end of the MQ is a great idea, while starting off slower like Morrowind would give more of a sense of freedom to go explore without feeling pressured into the MQ right away.

I used the console to set the stage if I remember correctly. The reason is that with this character, I had made up my mind how his life would transpire (and I would RP it) before beginning him. Essentially it went like this:

Poor kid (teenager) whose parents were slain by Bandits. He somehow survived the attack and by necessity he learned to fend for himself by stealing and looting, and was basically a wandering thief until he was recruited by the Thieves Guild. From there he worked his way through the ranks, and eventually caught the eye of the Dark Brotherhood when an unfortunate incident during a burglary resulted in murder. (This was why he was in prison at the beginning of the game.) So, I played the TG & DB quests as if they happened BEFORE he was in prison, so that his encounter with Jean Luc Picard was the beginning of a new life for him. He was “born again” if you will after meeting the emperor.

But before he was worthy of becoming Champion, he had a lot of work to do to redeem himself in the eyes of his fellow man and the gods, and even in his own heart. (Que the Fighters Guild & Mages Guild et al.) The gods even made sure he was ready by sending him on supernatural quests to Shivering Isles and against Umaril the Unfeathered. Only after proving himself truly redeemed and a worthy Champion would the gates of Oblivion be allowed to open and the MQ continue. (This was absolutely the most fun and satisfying playthrough I’ve done out of nearly 1000 hours in Tamriel.

/hijack