I hate to say it, but the entire main quest of oblivion was pointless. There is another Septim heir, and this one isn't any old priest/farmer/daedra worshiper like Martin. Whoever the Duke/Duchess of Narsis is, they are a descendant of Tiber Septim's brother -- as Tiber septim had one son, Peleguis, who was killed without any children. Maybe this ill show up in the next game somehow, but overall it was a big mistake on the part of Bethesda (sorry) you could have prevented this with one stupid rumor or something.

I dont think it was compleatly pointless, but that is a big overlook by Bethesda. :wacko: I did'nt realize that.

Are you sure that the reign of Narsis is or was still in Septim hands? According to this page http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty that was somewhere back in the very beginning of the 3rd era.
And if the Mythic Dawn was capable of finally murdering the emperor, I'm sure they also managed to kill some governor in southern Morrowind.

Dude, I am the Hero of Kvatch and Champion of Cyrodiil, it all was a hell of fun, it was definitly not pointless

From a previous thread:

Was Uriel a womanizer who proliferated his line with figuratively any woman who crossed his path? Was practically the better part of the Septim line devoted to making ofshoots of the Septim line? Yes and yes. Are there likely men and women out there with Septim blood in their veins? Yes. These things I know.

But it remains that Bethesda built up a strong case with practically a word-of-god statement via the game's plot that they are done with the Septim line. I would be incredibly surprised if they retconned their "he's the last one" ending to continue the Septim line. In terms of the direction of the series as a whole, they seem to be shunting it in the direction of post-Septim life. Think of Oblivion's ending as comparable to their writing http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/notesracial.shtml. Are half-breeds and cross-races possible in the lore? Certainly; we have many examples. But the point of that book is to say, "You're not getting hybrid races, so don't ask for them." So too, I think, with Oblivion's ending. It's meant to say, "The Septim line is finished now, so don't ask for their return." Again, whether that is a good thing or not depends on many things, not the least of which how they will go about displaying a world without the Septims.

However, let's consider some explanatory possibilities Bethesda might use to explain Martins' acceptance as a bastard child and the non-acceptance or non-consideration of the rest of the spread blood of the Septims.
1) The remaining Septims may all be hypothetical bastard-children of differing degrees. And bastard-children don't regularly hold claim to the throne. Martin was a huge and obvious exception, as his becoming Emperor was vital to the continued existence of the Dagon-free world. Post-Oblivion-crisis, the Elder Council's self-serving natures and greediness will undoubtedly return, meaning they won't be so kind to bastard-children.
2) Obviously, at the time of the Oblivion crisis, places where there would have been heirs to the throne were devoid of heirs to the throne. Whether that happened over the course of decades (natural death without offspring) or whether the Dawnmen got to them and their families, too, (expected, since they were planning on removing all heirs, not just the Emperor and sons), they did not exist since the Elder Council would simply have summoned them to the Imperial City and crowned one Emperor, rendering the whole Oblivion plot nonexistent.
3) Even if the Dawnmen missed some legitimate Septim heirs, the mood of the Elder Council may have changed post-Oblivion-crisis; they may be no longer willing to support the Septim line. After all, most of the citizenry of Cyrodiil received the false tale that Martin was the very last heir; if the council denied a claimant rights to the throne with no Amulet of Kings to verify, or they simply disposed of a claimant to remove public scrutiny, the Elder Council could then set up the beginnings of a puppet-Empire, even moreso that what the Septim Empire was at some times.
4) Again, even if the Dawnmen missed some legitimate Septim heirs, perhaps someone with enough charisma or backing simply claimed the throne. It's not like Tiber or Reman didn't do that back in the day. Perhaps a high-ranking official from within the Legion, supported to ascension by his troops, etc, etc. Someone takes over enough territory, leans on the variables enough to make it unwise for the Elder Council to protest, and hijacks the throne. Within a few centuries, people would be speaking of that line with the same legitimacy that they did the Septim line.

Me, I think it was just panic on the part of everybody. It's not like all of Tamriel had the entire Septim studbook memorized.

Also, if anyone had actually looked at any of those copies of A Brief History of the Empire that appear to be mandatory in every desk in Cyrodiil they would have noticed that St. Alessia wasn't a Septim. Neither were the Reman. Yet they seem to have worn the amulet without any problems. I just want to know who was keeping the Dragonfires lit during the interregnums.

The amulet isn't strictly for a bloodline, it is for the bloodline that is at the time accepted as emperor of Tamriel. In between the dragon fires weren't lit, but no Daedra attacked because they knew that they could be lit very easily. but that didn't stop him from trying -- for example; he destroyed Mournhold after the Commana dynasty fell.

People who ask to many questions get the "prod of a thousand aches."

I think you hit the nail, it doesn't matter if there is a legitimate heir, what matters is that the plot indicates that Beth wants to move away from the septims, about time i might add, almost every game revolved around them or had some significance towards them, excluding the spin-offs, morrowind was the least, but the septims still played an important role there too, all that ending is a clear message from Beth.

Hmmm...this has got me thinking, has anyone noticed that Cyrodiil sort of looked like the end stage of a long story, ignore the plot and characters for a second, the place itself, it's central location in Tamriel, it's all in one landscape, to me it sort of looks like the grand finale of something big. Maybe Beth intended for TES IV to be the end of the first 'saga' shall we call it, maybe they are planning for the next game to take the game in a completely different direction, hmmm...i wonder....

No, i haven't noticed that. they chose the central provence because they wanted to do a noob-friendly game and thought the imperial city -- or imperial small town (population just under 100) -- would be nice to throw in there.

Cyrodiil's been something its been building up to since Redguard, really, with the fleshing out of the Colovians, and Morrowind introducing Imperials as a standalone race. Just a shhame its a bit of a letdown.

Maybe, even though thereare other septims, none of them would have what it takes to unify quarreling provinces or wear the amulet, and so from the perspective of those in charge, the Septim line really is dead?

Well, I doubt it takes a strong person to wear the amulet. There's been some pretty bad emperors, from what I recall.

Ah, but do you actually have t be strong, or merely convince everyone else of that fact, and in doing so, demonstrate the cunning necessary?

If the Deadra can steal Vivec they'd have no problem taking down any other heirs... Oh wait...

>.<

You mean dumbing down the game for those players that couldn't even find Caius Cosades in Morrowind?

There are more Septims. There are lots of them, but none of them are famous. Also, this is a feudal society, so any illegitimate son on the throne would have led to civil disorder. If, however, the Mythic Dawn assassinated the Septim nobility (Mankar Camoran would have known - he is from a powerful elven family, and many of them, such as Ra'athim and Direnni, have a few Septim relations), then only the branch that had Katariah assassinated is still around, or possibly Tiber Septim's descendants. They're not going to be able to take the throne.

Eh? With no proper occlusion culling, Balmora's a stretch to load properly, and so would the Imperial City if it had a population of "thouands upon thousands".

Besides, the problem with Caius wasn't people not finding his house, it was with people who sold his package to Arille. :rolleyes:


Seems more capitalist to me. One wonders how a feudal society where there are few farms and everyone seems to live in cities and sell armor maintains itself. But I guess those rice plantations that weren't in the game should be present. Maybe they all live in big communist collective farms.

I reckon the remaining Septims either aren't Septimy enough to be accepted by the populace or aren't kingly enough to wear the amulet. Not that we even have an amulet any more. Perhaps "the Septim line is dead" means "the Septim line is pointless now"? If all future emperors could be crowned for wholly political reasons rather than practical self defence against the Daedra.

I guess we'll find out with the new TES novel.

Actually I think the OP is wrong, take a look at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty

Well, UESP tends to be inferior for lore, but regardless...

If you follow the line down to Uriel Septim II, you'll notice his daughter does indeed marry the Duke of Narsis, meaning whomever sits on the throne of Narsis is of Septim blood. And each one of those extraneous marriages and unions that don't extend the tree in the direct lineage sense still undoubtedly create offspring, and those offspring and their lineage are also legitimate heirs.

And that's not even counting all the illegitimate Septim bastard-children.

Not all societies have the same inheritance rules. Just because a daughter married into the Narsis family, doesn't mean the Duke married into the Septim Line in any real sense. (Although such an assertion would be ironic, on account of how interbreeding is supposed to work.) I've never studied noble bloodlines in Tamriel, but maybe someone else can answer this question: in the absence of a male heir, does inheritance typically run through a daughter's line to a grandson, or laterally to a brother or uncle? Has there ever been a woman who ruled except as a reagent in a young emperor's name?

There may be a conflict between Dunmeri laws and Imperial laws. The

Dunmer seem to have a system where anyone who challenges the person who has the title can get it, as long as they're a member of the House. They also appear to have a system where they vote for the House leaders, as long as they're a member of the House. This is sort of similar to tanistry, although it's not the same sort of concept. The Imperials give the throne to the eldest son or daughter unless there's a good reason not to.

The result is that any Imperial heir will not be approved by each member of the House (I assume that the dukes are members of a House; they must at least be affiliated with one of them). That would lead to rivalries, and it's probably not worth it for Ocato and others to taunt the Dunmer by putting the Imperial system above their own, especially when they seem to think there is a threat to their authority in Morrowind that is somehow more important than the Daedra.

There's also few details on who the duke is. The Imperials may have been challenged, assassinated, or ordered to return to Cyrodiil. The title would have found its way back into Dunmer hands, with the Morag Tong around, and plenty of fanatics ready to challenge their leader for his title. Both of those things were strong after the Armistice, and if leaders of House Indoril are willing to commit suicide, then I'm sure the traditionalist Dres would be willing to kill one of their opponents.



Katariah Ra'athim. She was a Dunmer noble who married one of the worst emperors, and was given his throne. It might have been him you were referring to. Oh, and Alessia, of course, but she wasn't the ruler of Tamriel.

Morihatha, and both Kintyras

Like ThatOneGuy, I've said in the past that Bethesda is through with the Septims. The speculation on a branch of the Septims achieving power is probably of little use. Look how casual they were about killing off the Emperor's three legitimate sons, for example.

What will be interesting to see is if Gregory Keyes' TES books are setting the stage for a TES V game. Could it be that the young woman Annaig who is mentioned will become an Empress? Or maybe it will be Attrebus who achieves power. There's also a secondary possibility that even if one or the other of Keyes' characters becomes the ruler, the plot will still be separate from TES V.

I don't think the Dunmer will figure into it. Ted Peterson wrote in Loranna's RP that Helseth isn't interested in the Ruby Throne, preferring to consolidate power within Morrowind and realistic about his chances. We haven't heard of a Dunmer claimant who's any more powerful than Helseth, as far as I know. Of course, Bethesda might not follow Ted Peterson's ideas on the Dunmer, for TES V; but maybe it's an indication of how the rest of the devs are thinking also.

Time for a change the 4th Era will dawn...

Stand down, Necromancer...don't revive dead things. If the Synod catches you they'll send a witch hunter after you.

Titus Mede is Emperor now, as all know. Blessed be his holy name.

Another plausible successor of Tiber Septim would be King Gothryd and whatever children he may sire. In Daggerfall, an agent of the Underking gives a remark (when referencing King Lysandus, his father) along the lines of, "not even death can hide a true descendant of Tiber Septim from the Underking."

This could be metaphorical, but given how one of the Underking's aspects is actually Zurin Arctus, he may actually mean it. I *think* Gothryd is still alive presently, he'd only be about 52 at the time of Oblivion's events, and I'm sure he has descendants either way.

Indeed, if we want to read deeply into it, there's numerous potential descendants of Tiber Septim, even ones proven through actual lore sources by Bethesda. It's obvious they want to do away with them though, as the Septims themselves are anologous to the Empire. The end of their reign represents a new beginning entirely.