How come the Necromancers in Vvardenfell don't get the Necromancer's moon? There aren't even Black soul gems, and yet Lore-wise they exist.

Probably due to persecution from the Temple, the Order of the Black Worm does not seem to be in operation in Vvardenfell. Hence there are no shades and no black soul gems.

But many orginazaitions persecuted by the Temple survive.

True, but they're deeply entrenched in Vvardenfell. Telvanni necromancers, the Sixth House, the Dissident Priests, the Nerevarine Cult, they've all been around for a while and have hidden bases of operation. The Order of the Black Worm would (and probably has) have trouble establishing a foothold on the island.

Necromantic presence is probably extremely low in Morrowind, not many Necromancers would want to take the risk.
Also, if I am correct, I think the Order of the Black Worm mainly use it as they are extremist necromancers, and since they are based in Cyrodill, black soul gems are probably not as widespread in other provinces. I also bet many other normal practitioners of the art probably wouldn't give a damn about capturing human souls.

I have a feeling using soul gems is a form of a bad crutch for the practicing necromancer. The book http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml doesn't mention the use of soul gems, yet is detailed in everything else.

Perhaps the Order is moving away from conjuring spirits from beyond to snatching them from the living. It has the added bonus of providing a body to work on at the same time.

My guess is Bethesda hadn't thought of those ideas until Oblivion, so they never appeared in Morrowind because the writers hadn't considered doing them/

But if you want lore reasons, maybe black soul gems are only used by that one group of necromancers in Cyrodiil, or necromancy isn't so wide spread in Morrowind, and they haven't spread there, or something like that.

Those individuals who were practicing Necromancy were likely also still in the Mage's Guild. The Guild itself certainly would look the other way, but if you were a practicing Necromancer in the Guild in Morrowind/Vvardenfell, then I'd bet the people at large and the Inquisition would be very interested in your research and how it pertains to keeping your head on your body.

Powerful Necromancers like the Telvanni or Mannimarco probably don't need to use soul gems at all. Their presence in Cyrodill may have been an outward sign of Mannimarco recruiting large numbers of less experienced Necromancers to bolster his army.

Given Mannimarco has only ascended a while back, the use of Black Soul Gems must be a relatively new development. Mannimarco is like the Nikola Tesla of Necromancy.

I agree, soul stones are a crutch.

Who said they didn't? It was Morrowind that gave us http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arkay_enemy.shtml, paving the way for a confrontation between the Temple of Arkay - possibly the Empire - and the Order of the Black Worm.

With the Black Soul Gems, he found a way to circumvent it; by killing mortals and trapping their souls in Black Soul Gems, they not only can trap mortal souls for their purposes, but in the process, gain an unsanctified body for their purposes. He apparently also was planning on placing an undead puppet onto the throne of Lainlyn , but was thwarted by Garridan and Lord Jaren. He also seemingly wanted to ally with Count Hassildor. He thinks ahead and he thinks big.

I'm certain Mannimarco came to Cyrodiil specifically for the Amulet. If he was ever to be sole regent of the throne he and Arkay occupied, he needed the Amulet of Kings. Then, instead of Arkay's capitulation with the Dreamsleeve, the God of Worms would tare us from its destructive recycle, to preserve each ego in never-ending undeath.

Very interesting theory, but I don't think he was after the Amulet; who needs acceptance when you have no problems ruling by force? Once Arkay worship is destroyed (possibly put on hold to first put an end to the Mages Guild, the more immediate threat) Arkay would no longer have any power over him. And with Black Soul Gems, souls can be directly taken.

Not to mention that the loss of memory through the Dreamsleeve could be attributed to the fact that when you're reborn, you're placed in a vessel initially incapable of holding memories or any sort of knowledge that the ghost retains. But I digress.

Thank you


Who needs rule by force when you can rule by godhood eternal?


Mannimarco's own words: simply: as above, so below.
The only feasible avenue for his twin's defeat and his temples' downfall was to supplant him in the firmament. He knew no war could accomplish this. No, I believe the Stone was his primary objective.

As for the Mages Guild, this was the Temple fighting a proxy war with the Order of the Black Worm, with Traven as their loyal babbitt, so to speak. The Temple of Arkay is a nonviolent priesthood, you see. They settle their differences with diplomacy (read: ceaseless, political maneuverings to either assuage their foe, or host another power to negate them).


These soul gems only serve a function while Arkay is alive...


The souls are left to amalgamate in the Dreamsleeve, from which no soul - but those under special arangement - returns the same. They are stripped of all self there and it is a terrifying experince. Arkay blesses mortal souls with no memory of it. This is what Mannimarco means by Arkay's capitulation, because he did not save mortals but tricks them. Instead, Mannimarco believes undeath is complete victory of the self over the Dreamsleeve.

Force them to worship you, and sooner or later you'll be more than king, but their god. And unlike the real-life cases, it'd do more than cast an impression of godhood.


Seems to me like Mannimarco has been fighting the Mages Guild for some time, trapping the souls of their leaders, for whatever purpose, likely building his power while eliminating the organization that more or less controls magic on Tamriel. As the Divines are retroactive, all he must do to stop Arkay is to destroy worship of him.



Still interesting, but I don't know of any evidence that validates it (if you can provide sources, I'd be grateful). Spirits describe whatever lies beyond as more pleasant than Nirn. And when you can steal souls there's no need to even bring the Dreamsleeve into it, you can just take the souls straight from the body, no conjuration required.

When he's one of the most popular gods on Tamriel? That isn't going to happen by lopping off heads and making martyrs alone. We know his war was two-pronged, or simply: as above, so below. One was on Tamriel, the other was in the heavens, but they were part of one war. Mannimarco learned how to win from the Selectives.


Like I said, some spirits are protected by special rules and not bound to the Dreamsleeve at all, but to their aligned AE: a god who they were dedicated to.


No, the God of Worms wouldn't take the souls from the Dreamsleeve, he'd simply allow it dry out, because his godhood would starve it of souls, since they would be bound to him. The Revenant Moon still shares a space with Arkay, but had Mannimarco succeeded in Oblivion, the God of Worms' special rules would apply to the mortals, because he would be taking Arkay's place. His power was not what it could have been. The need to steal souls would end with Arkay, because there would be no other to steal from.

Not initially, but eventually, a few generations of control later, he'd be worshipped by many. Heck, he really doesn't need anything other than support and worship to grow in power as a god.


How do we know it would change if Arkay's worship was stopped? Sure he's associated with it, I don't see the degredation of an Aedra's power affect his/her sphere, because they gave parts of themselves up to stabilize the Creation.

Only I shall hold sway over life and death. If Arkay was killed, his safeguards would go unenforced. Mannimarco knew to kill a god is to replace them. Although I'd continue to quote him from "Where Were You When the Dragon Broke," I think we can agree to disagree.