Shelter from Magnus' Blaze

Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:55 am

Deselecting all mods except the three .esms, recalculating distant land, and starting a new game worked.

Tracked the texture back to Stomper's Mournhold Expanded. Reselected all mods except that one, recalculated distant land, cleaned my save, and I was able to load the save just fine, no crashing.

Thanks for the report. The Mournhold Expanded package is missing that one texture (someone should tell Princess Stomper about that). I'll add better error handling for that case.


Looking pretty good here =) Finally got home from Finland to try this out.

*There's some flickering that seemed to appear at a certain time of day. I will try to reproduce it and post when and if I find it again.
*I can get SSAO and Sunshaft to work pretty well but neither of the two Bloom shaders bundled with this seems to be working at all. I tried placing them in different places in the chain, no success.
*Water up close looks a bit odd. I don't know it just looks like it's moving very unnaturally. Like the very very old MGE water.

I'm concerned about the bloom. Look in the mgeXE.log file, does it say anything? Does switching HDR in MGEgui do anything?


SSAO always does that.. Also, SSAO looks awful outside, the grass especially + you get a very visible black line where the SSAO ends, imo its better to just use SSAO for interiors where it looks really good.

If you look at the galleries in the top post, they are done with SSAO'd grass. I modified the textures a bit such that the grass roots don't line up anymore, and the SSAO darkening is lower than standard. It looks much better than default, as the small grass meshes can't cast shadows normally.


Although I do have SSAO in my shader list, I have it flagged as disabled in exteriors and interiors behaving like exteriors. Hrnchamd had made a comment about mucking about with grass lighting and shadows (which I think I can see quite clearly, but I didn't think to make a screenshot before I switched to his build), so I thought that was the source of the anomaly.

I must have broken the flags somewhere, since SSAO doesn't turn off underwater like in your screenshot. Going to fix it for the next version.


I cant make an extensive testing but with a couple of loads and some play under the trees i must say i fall in love with this MGE version.

For the moment no one problem arise, no crashes.
-My extensive problems with alpha showing some transparent lines have disappeared.
-The enervating poping of grass when turning has also disappeared.
-A huge gain in fps in every condition.
-The only problem is the commented problem with overlapping alphas like the ghosfence but also waterfalls in vivec.
-In a moment the shadows make a quick transition but nothing that bothers me.
-I cant test the SSAO shader cause i get the message 'that shader does not currently compile' (using the included in the package)

Thanks, connary. To make SSAO work, you have to open the SSAO file in the shader editor and follow the instructions at the top. Could you provide a screenshot of the waterfall problems? It may not be totally solvable, but I will try to make it work given sufficient examples.
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:07 pm

I'm concerned about the bloom. Look in the mgeXE.log file, does it say anything? Does switching HDR in MGEgui do anything?


This is from the log file:
MGE XE 0.6>> CreateD3DWrapper-- CreateD3DWrapper calling Direct3DCreate9<< CreateD3DWrapper>> D3D Proxy CreateDevice-- D3D Proxy Factory OK<< D3D Proxy CreateDevice>> CreateInputWrapper<< CreateInputWrapper-- Proxy Keyboard OK-- Proxy Mouse OK-- Proxy Mouse OK-- Proxy Mouse OK>> Distant Land init>> Distant Land init shader-- Shader compiled OK-- Shadow map shader compiled OK-- Depth shader compiled OK>> Distant Land init post shaders>> Post Process shader init-- Post shader data files\shaders\default\knx_SSAO_v09.fx loaded-- Post shader data files\shaders\default\sunshaft_v002a.fx loaded-- Post shader data files\shaders\default\GIMP_HDRBloom_v1_3.fx loaded<< Post Process shader init>> Distant Land init depth>> Distant Land init shadow>> Distant Land init water>> Distant Land init world>> Landscape Load-- Landscape textures loaded-- Landscape quadtree filled<< Landscape Load>> Distant Land init statics-- Distant Land finished loading distant statics>> Distant Land init fog<< Distant Land init>> Distant Land release<< Distant Land release


Will have time to test if HDR switching has any effect tomorrow. Also I think somebody already mentioned but grass moves oddly sometimes.
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Lance Vannortwick
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:58 am

How my waterfall looks: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/332/mgescreenshot25.jpg
New textures with the vanilla game. Perhaps this can be solved playing with alpha flags and threshold? i can test some variables...
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Damien Mulvenna
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:10 pm

Thanks for the report. The Mournhold Expanded package is missing that one texture (someone should tell Princess Stomper about that). I'll add better error handling for that case.

Not quite - it's there. Odd compression, though - "Run Length Encoding." I resaved it with no compression, regenerated distant land, and was able to load with no crashes.

I must have broken the flags somewhere, since SSAO doesn't turn off underwater like in your screenshot. Going to fix it for the next version.

Confirmed - removing SSAO from the shader list entirely eliminated the weird shadowing when casting, swimming, etc. So, the shader flags do seem to be non-functional in this build.

Thanks again for your efforts.
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R.I.p MOmmy
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:07 am

How my waterfall looks: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/332/mgescreenshot25.jpg
New textures with the vanilla game. Perhaps this can be solved playing with alpha flags and threshold? i can test some variables...

There may be two problems contributing to this together.
1. Edit the NIF, turn on alpha test and set to greater than 4.

If that doesn't fix it...
2. Make a copy of the waterfall textures with alpha channel removed, and save them to Data Files\distantland\statics\textures.
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Trish
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:33 pm

While fixing up underwater, it seemed a bit strange to see things near the horizon at all. Time for a bit of optics, no? The water-air interface should display total internal reflection over the critical angle of 48.6 degrees. It should look water-y. A little experimentation later, and I think it's a good start.

Gallery : http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-4-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1280866638.jpg

Meanwhile I'm trying to optimize grass rendering (it doesn't like being optimized), and do something about better interaction with shadow and fog. I would like to see some experimentation and commentary on the issues asked for in my previous posts.
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Emily Graham
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:51 am

Absolute [censored] leg-end. Everything ive seen so far looks kick ass. Now if only i could get it to work :P
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Robyn Howlett
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:47 am

Looks really really nice there!

Any news on my unfortunate issues?
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Laura Shipley
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Ya aint posted nothing to go on. The water might be something to do with vsync (always on in windowed mode). Does it stop looking weird in full screen with immediate vsync?
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Marine Arrègle
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:02 am

Those underwater shots are looking good.

I don't yet have anything else to add on top of my previous comments, but I am hoping to log some information about certain times when shadows have sudden shifts. I have experienced it just after the sun fully sets, but there have been daytime occurrences too. I'd like to document it as completely as I can before "reporting."
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Kira! :)))
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:49 pm

I have also experienced the sudden shadow shift when the sun went down. By the way, the water is looking good Hrnchamd!
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kennedy
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:47 am

While fixing up underwater, it seemed a bit strange to see things near the horizon at all. Time for a bit of optics, no? The water-air interface should display total internal reflection over the critical angle of 48.6 degrees. It should look water-y. A little experimentation later, and I think it's a good start.

Gallery : http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-4-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1280866639.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1280866638.jpg

Meanwhile I'm trying to optimize grass rendering (it doesn't like being optimized), and do something about better interaction with shadow and fog. I would like to see some experimentation and commentary on the issues asked for in my previous posts.

That looks great! I had mentioned way back when Liztail was working on MGE v3.8.0 (when he was incorporating depth-based water effects) about possibly emulating how light refraction behaves from underwater similar to what you have accomplished here. Another behavior that would be terrific to see is how the deeper you go underwater, the smaller that above surface view portal gets.

Also, a much darker ambient light level underwater during nighttime is needed - should be at least the same lighting levels below as above water.




I've been testing build v0.62 a bit, but have been distracted with other projects - I hope to have some more detailed feedback for you soon, including fps benchmarks. At this point, I can confirm what others have reported regarding animated grass stutter and shadows still visible during sundown (albeit faint as if cast from moonlight). The difference in framerate between shadows enabled and disabled is about 18-20%; I still need to do more comprehensive comparison tests against rev-0163+.

A few preliminary observations:
* I've noticed that there is shadow pop-in while moving which appears to be due to distant statics entering/leaving MW's render distance - this is more easily viewed when traveling thru the vivec cantons.
[edit] I double checked this, and haven't been able to reproduce it with v0.62 - I'm pretty sure it was happening with v0.6 tho. Upon further examination, it probably had to do more with the static min size and end distances and those distant statics falling out of range while moving. With v0.62 shadows are fading out as the statics get out of range.

* Once in a while there's also a noticeable shadow wall on the peripheries when rotating the camera view in 1st person - standing still and rotating makes it easier to notice. This usually occurs near cell borders.
[edit] tested some more, and this shadow wall appears to be the projected shadow getting clipped by MW's view range limit. It's similar to the levitating issue below.

* Shadows sometimes pull away from the ground when levitating, as if the calculated position for where the ground plane should be is getting set to the player's z-world position.
[edit] further testing reveals that the projected shadows are getting clipped at the MW view range limit, it's more noticeable when looking almost directly down. Here are some screenshots to demonstrate:

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_levshadowglitch_01.jpg - bottom right of picture 1st tier should be in shadow.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_levshadowglitch_02.jpg - bottom right of picture 1st tier shadow has mostly disappeared and bottom of Arena canton shadow at Telvanni canton waterline has partially disappeared.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_levshadowglitch_03.jpg - 1st tier shadows have almost completely disappeared.

All these screenshots were taken at the same time of day, ~4pm


* In someplaces, particularly the north-east corner of the Redoran canton near the 1st tier bridge to FQ, the shadowed ground suddenly brightened within what appeared to be some of the canton model's triangles. I had to be viewing the ground at a specific angle; time of day was afternoon.
[edit] this seems to occur more frequently on flat surfaces. Here are some sample screenshots showing the issue:

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_staticshadowglitch_01.jpg - shadows partially missing.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_staticshadowglitch_02.jpg - another angle, shadows partially missing.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_staticshadow_on.jpg - same spot, looking at a slightly higher angle, shadows rendered correctly.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_staticshadow_off.jpg - same spot and angle with shadows disabled for comparison.

All these screenshots were taken at the same time of day, ~4pm


* Screen repositioning in windowed mode equal to the desktop resolution will cause the game load progress meters to get partially cut-off by the bottom of the windowed frame since the frame doesn't completely fill the screen. The offset appears to be whatever the size was of the window title bar before it's removed.


Some MGEgui settings used during testing:
* view distance of 5 cells
* fog range 0.5 - 5.0
* 'Near', 'Far', and 'Very Far' static end distances of 2, 3.5, and 5 respectively
* Fog mode is set to 'Range vertex'
* primarily 1152x864 windowed mode, other 4:3 ratios as well when testing the screen repositioning feature
* 1280x960 fullscreen mode

Testing with nvidia geforce 8800GT SC 512MB; driver version: 195.62
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Brentleah Jeffs
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:01 am

Is a 186 revision version feasible?
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butterfly
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:14 pm

Additional testing results for mgeXE v0.62:

* Shadows are not rendered correctly on Better Bodies and Better Clothes meshes when the PC is standing in shadow - examples screenshots:

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_pcshadowglitch_01.jpg - from back view, parts of raised arms become fully lit instead of remaining in shadow.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_pcshadowglitch_02.jpg - from front view, parts of arms and clothes are too dark (rest of PC is in full shadow).

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_pcshadowglitch_03.jpg - visible dark lines at elbow joints.


* Position of shadow projections does not match between weather changes where sun visibility is set to zero. Here are some examples in Mournhold, Plaza Brindisi Dorom:

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_plaza_overcast.jpg - note the position of shadows.

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_plaza_cloudy.jpg - shadow position instantly changes to correct projection in relation to sun.

Both screenshots were taken at ~5pm.
Also note that the intensity of shadows within the radius of artificial light sources is too faded - I would think that sunlight would overpower the light from a street lamp especially in non-sun-obscuring weather conditions (cloudy vs overcast).


* Flat wall sections between the towers and buttresses in Mournhold exteriors are not providing shadows - example screenshot:

http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/mgexe/mgexe062_plaza_shadowglitch.jpg - shadow projections for the sloped walls are missing.


[edit] Additional issues:

* Wind influence on MGE animated statics is too great - e.g. the bending of grass is way over exaggerated in thunderstorms.

* Animated statics tagged as 'tree' in exception lists are not getting rendered; however, their water reflections do get rendered.

* MW's water ripple texture is not smoothly rendered while player is moving - texture flashes on and off and sometimes completely disappears before ripples decay.
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Emily abigail Villarreal
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:10 am

How come you guys all have shiny water? I thought it wasn't supported yet? When water and mwse is supported this will definitely be my main build, since the errors are minor compared to what it brings. Great stuff Hrnchamd, amazing how you jump in and straightaway make such progress.
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Dawn Farrell
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:32 pm

Lots of thanks, tetchy. This is only going to get done with help like this.

* I've noticed that there is shadow pop-in while moving which appears to be due to distant statics entering/leaving MW's render distance - this is more easily viewed when traveling thru the vivec cantons.
[edit] I double checked this, and haven't been able to reproduce it with v0.62 - I'm pretty sure it was happening with v0.6 tho. Upon further examination, it probably had to do more with the static min size and end distances and those distant statics falling out of range while moving. With v0.62 shadows are fading out as the statics get out of range.

It is most likely to happen when the sun is at a low angle. Shadows can only cast from a few cells away, or it would have to draw a slice of the whole island into the shadow map. I'd rather make a tradeoff here rather than slow down things too much.

* Once in a while there's also a noticeable shadow wall on the peripheries when rotating the camera view in 1st person - standing still and rotating makes it easier to notice. This usually occurs near cell borders.
[edit] tested some more, and this shadow wall appears to be the projected shadow getting clipped by MW's view range limit. It's similar to the levitating issue below.

* Shadows sometimes pull away from the ground when levitating, as if the calculated position for where the ground plane should be is getting set to the player's z-world position.
[edit] further testing reveals that the projected shadows are getting clipped at the MW view range limit, it's more noticeable when looking almost directly down. Here are some screenshots to demonstrate:

There is a projection cube which contains all the shadowed objects, the centre of the projection tracks the player view, but there are modifications. At the sun gets lower, more detail is allocated in the height axis to keep detail in with the long shadows, but this reduces the total height range the projection represents. I'm not sure what else to do about it at the moment.

* In someplaces, particularly the north-east corner of the Redoran canton near the 1st tier bridge to FQ, the shadowed ground suddenly brightened within what appeared to be some of the canton model's triangles. I had to be viewing the ground at a specific angle; time of day was afternoon.

Vivec and Mournhold have statics with very large triangles, this causes z-fighting when trying to draw on top of them. Large triangles have the worst accuracy problems when matching Morrowind's depth value. It's different for every setup, so it needs manual tweaking for worst case.

* Shadows are not rendered correctly on Better Bodies and Better Clothes meshes when the PC is standing in shadow - examples screenshots:

It's very difficult to draw exactly on top of Morrowind rendering; nothing quite matches up due to accuracy differences. If there are overlapping or near-overlapping triangles, then there will be double shadowing at the overlap area. That shirt in particular has duplicated triangles and overlap areas which don't work with the shadow pass, most of the other Better Clothes meshes work normally. The elbow joint likewise has intersecting triangles at the dark area. It's a mesh technical quality problem. The only way to solve it is take over Morrowind rendering which is somewhat difficult to get right.

* Position of shadow projections does not match between weather changes where sun visibility is set to zero. Here are some examples in Mournhold, Plaza Brindisi Dorom:

Thanks, I didn't notice that was the cause of that. Think it should work now.

* Flat wall sections between the towers and buttresses in Mournhold exteriors are not providing shadows - example screenshot:

A lot of Mournhold's meshes aren't suitable, if you clip through to the other side you can see the missing faces. They all need to be overhauled to work properly.

* Wind influence on MGE animated statics is too great - e.g. the bending of grass is way over exaggerated in thunderstorms.
* Animated statics tagged as 'tree' in exception lists are not getting rendered; however, their water reflections do get rendered.
* MW's water ripple texture is not smoothly rendered while player is moving - texture flashes on and off and sometimes completely disappears before ripples decay.

I'll put grass back to stock animation. My graphics card is slow to see grass animate at full speed, I can't really tell. Animated trees aren't going to be supported for now. Ripples are already fixed in the next build, more z-fighting.
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mike
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:44 am

I haven't tried this build yet, but I'm already planning to create some "full" versions of the mournhold wall meshes so that the shadows don't go crazy. Shouldn't be too hard by any stretch.
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lacy lake
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:31 am

Any news on my unfortunate issues?

The bloom shaders probably didn't work because the default variables were super lame and barely affected anything. There are updated defaults in the next version.
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Ludivine Dupuy
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:35 am

The bloom shaders probably didn't work because the default variables were super lame and barely affected anything. There are updated defaults in the next version.

Until then I will tweak away to my hearts content then =)

Overlapping faces seems to be a pretty big issue to get shadows to work properly. Hmm. I will think and research the net for info on this.
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Laura Cartwright
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:20 pm

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26348

Changes:
  • Underwater surface effects, total internal reflection
  • Shadow darkness more in tune with weather conditions
  • Less shadow fading at shadow casters' base
  • Hopefully less ground plane shadow problems
  • Included bloom shaders have better default settings
  • Bad/missing textures are replaced with bright yellow instead of crashing
  • Some alternate grass rendering code
  • Shader flags working again
  • I probably changed other things I forgot about


Underwater should look real nice now. Go for a swim and tell me how it could be made to look even better.

The alternate grass rendering batches grass into subcells, which may or may not render faster than the original method. It can be activated by binding a key to toggle grass and disabling grass. Instead of no grass you will get the alternate code path. I'm not sure how it performs on newer cards, please can everyone test it. Don't be surprised if it's slower, it's not totally finished.

Finally, check shadows with all weather conditions. Is it too light or dark in some environments? Should they turn off totally in some conditions?
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Tiffany Carter
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:31 am

I was trying the latest version out, looking at the shadows for a bit and something struck me as a little odd. The shadows seem to be lighter the closer it is to the base of the shadow casting object and darker the further it is away from the object. Whereas the opposite is true for real life.

Still, shadows at all is still a very impressive accomplishment. :)
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Kate Schofield
 
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Post » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:11 am

Btw, is the SSAO coupled with this the low fat SSAO (half quality SSAO) that was released or the old slow full quality one? The speedy one is nice enough imo =)
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Alexis Estrada
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:04 pm

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26348

Changes:
  • I probably changed other things I forgot about



Such as shader flags? They seem to be working now. Thanks for that.

I've noticed one issue where having MW/MGE blend enabled causes certain meshes not to render (not always - changing the PC's PoV can cause the mesh to suddenly appear). The most prominent example I've found are the leaves on the trees outside Korana's Ascadian Rose Cottage. I can provide screenshots if you like, but I thought perhaps posting the mesh and texture would be of more value: http://www.speedyshare.com/files/23670271/ko_tree.7z.
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Tasha Clifford
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:33 pm

New gallery: Coastal Morning

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1281023163.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1281023162.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1281023162.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1281023122.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1281023122.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1281023121.jpg
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Sunnii Bebiieh
 
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Post » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:02 pm

MGE XE 0.7 is looking good -- thanks for the update :) . Will try to do a more detailed accounting later.
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Darren
 
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