Shelter from Magnus' Blaze : III - Morrowind

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:21 am

Looks really cool

How well would it work with billboarded trees (like Vality's), though, I wonder? I can't test right now because I'm STILL unable to use my main computer :brokencomputer:

When the sun shines on Vality's bitter coast trees the shadows look fine, but from above http://i29.tinypic.com/675mvb.jpg. But Vurt's West Gash trees look really good!

Performance is pretty awesome. Part of it has to do with that I have most of my mods disabled though... I'll see if I can do some good comparisons with the same mods active and everything. But for now...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot42.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot40.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot38.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot37-1.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot43.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot44-1.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot53.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot54-1.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot56-2.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot59-1.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot55-3.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot57-1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot62-1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot46.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot36-1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot45.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot52.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot48.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot50.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot51-1.jpg

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:31 pm

I've really been looking forward to this, and it's looking great, but I'm having the usual terrible problems with this. :facepalm:

It starts up into the menu fine, no errors, but once Seyda Neen loads up (I'm using a quick chargen mod) everything's grey except the sky and it's running at about 0.2 FPS. I've updated DirectX and turned off all MWSE, etc. just like your instructions. I've started it up a few times, and my mgeEX log looks like this:

Spoiler

MGE XE 0.6
>> CreateD3DWrapper
-- CreateD3DWrapper calling Direct3DCreate9
<< CreateD3DWrapper
>> D3D Proxy CreateDevice
-- D3D Proxy Factory OK
<< D3D Proxy CreateDevice
>> CreateInputWrapper
<< CreateInputWrapper
-- Proxy Keyboard OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
!! Failed to create depth target z-buffer

It doesn't look pretty, does it? I don't have a screenshot because pressing my screenshot key insta-crashes to desktop.

[edit] I managed to get a screenshot! http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2692/mgescreenshot013.png

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:17 am

Hi skaeps, more info please. OS, video card, video RAM, driver version.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:24 pm

In one install I've tested this and everything looks grand. A few glitches here and there (when underwater, looking up, you can't see above the water's surface -- a few other things, I'll try to make a more thorough accounting later) but otherwise looking good!

On another install, for some reason, I can't get my saves to load. Here's a copy of the log

Spoiler

MGE XE 0.6
>> CreateD3DWrapper
-- CreateD3DWrapper calling Direct3DCreate9
<< CreateD3DWrapper
>> D3D Proxy CreateDevice
-- D3D Proxy Factory OK
<< D3D Proxy CreateDevice
>> CreateInputWrapper
<< CreateInputWrapper
-- Proxy Keyboard OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
>> Distant Land init shadow
>> Distant Land init water
>> Distant Land init world
>> Landscape Load
-- Landscape textures loaded
-- Landscape quadtree filled
<< Landscape Load
>> Distant Land init statics
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim17.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_floor00.tga
Cannot load texture ndib_f_leaves00_lega.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
-- Distant Land finished loading distant statics

Not sure what those texture errors represent. I'm on Windows 7 x64 (installed to a custom location, not Program Files), using a GTX 260 core 216 with 896 VRAM, and the NVIDIA 257.21 whql driver. I'll report back if I figure out what to do to fix it...

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:15 pm

I was afraid you'd ask that...

Windows XP - SP3
3 GB RAM
ATi Radeon x1600/1650 - 512 MB
Driver version 10.2
Updated DirectX from first post
MW installed to custom directory, not Program Files

If you need more than that, I have a http://www.mediafire.com/file/ow36eu6i3uscz39/DxDiag.txt for you. Thank you for your help!

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:13 am

Incredible work Hrnchamd

Thanks for the screens povuholo, looks really nice.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:43 pm

Sorry to ask a really basic question but I'll never learn unless i ask - what is SVN 163 please?

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:28 pm

On another install, for some reason, I can't get my saves to load. Here's a copy of the log:
etc.

Seems to be bad texture paths in some NIFs. They shouldn't have Data Files in them already. Make sure you are using the latest MGEgui, otherwise I will have to check around.

I was afraid you'd ask that...

Don't worry, I used a 7600 GS AGP to make this thing. I've uploaded a new version that may or may not make it work.

Sorry to ask a really basic question but I'll never learn unless i ask - what is SVN 163 please?

It's the numbering of the MGE beta releases. You can see it on the sourceforge download page; I have added a link in the instructions for clarity.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:12 am

For the install that didn't work (well, for each install I tested actually) I unpacked svn178 and extracted your package over top of that, so MGEgui should be up to date. I don't get any errors while generating statics, either -- so I am not sure yet which NIFs would be responsible for the bad texture paths.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:59 am

Anyone willing to take a video? I'm curious how the shadows look interacting with moving actors.

Is there a way that at some point in the future this could be applied to characters as well and replace the ugly default shadows? :deal:

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:13 am

Anyone willing to take a video? I'm curious how the shadows look interacting with moving actors.

I'll see what I can do. It's awesome to see them move with a high timescale.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:16 pm

Anyone willing to take a video? I'm curious how the shadows look interacting with moving actors.

Is there a way that at some point in the future this could be applied to characters as well and replace the ugly default shadows? :deal:

The high quality shadows attained by editing the INI properly has always satisfied me when it comes to actors.

An MGE solution for actor shadows would certainly be interesting, though. I imagine if/when MGE gets to that point, we will have also gotten to the point of actor reflections, etc etc.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:54 pm

The high quality shadows attained by editing the INI properly has always satisfied me when it comes to actors.

I especially like how they cast shadows through objects, like floors and walls, its always good to know that there are actors on the floor above you! ...on the other hand, maybe not.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:29 am

I especially like how they cast shadows through objects, like floors and walls, its always good to know that there are actors on the floor above you! ...on the other hand, maybe not.

Oh yeah.

How could that possibly slip my mind?

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:06 am

Unfortunately, MGE does not render any npc's or creatures, and therefore can't be used, at least not by the method here to render their shadows, though I am sure through shaders it is possible, it will be some time yet before we see it.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:48 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZsqCXU9ki4

Quality isn't great but you get the idea.

Some of Vurt's trees don't show properly up close (missing the leafs, but the shadow shows all the leafs), torch lights are invisible, some female NPCs were bald I think and spell effects also don't seem to show. It's not in the video, I'll bring screenshots for this later.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:39 am

XE 0.6.2 uploaded. Alphas should show up consistently now, except for trees (they have z-write off, still working on a better solution).

I wanted to demonstrate some improvements over MGE since fps improvement was my original goal with the rewrite. Distant land is trickier to render than it seems. To be able to do blending and mesh the distant scene and near scene together cleanly, distant land has to be drawn first, no way around it. Normally in a game, the nearest solid things are drawn first, so it can avoid drawing things behind as much as possible. Distant land doesn't exactly match what Morrowind renders (can't record every detail) so there would be artifacts at the edge of Morrowind rendering; there had to be a compromise.

Still, there's some room for improvement. Here are some scenes from MGE 178, the whole scene and the distant part only.
Scene 0 http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1280080149.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1280080150.jpg
Scene 1 http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1280080151.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-4-1280080151.jpg
Scene 2 http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-1-1280080204.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-2-1280080204.jpg
Scene 3 http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-3-1280080205.jpg http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/26348-4-1280080205.jpg

You can see MGE draw things under or behind the land - strange ground planes, water, caustics, and distant statics. In particular, water is a heavy shader with 5 texture accesses per pixel. XE improves on this by rendering the land properly, so that the objects behind are hidden, for less shader load. Hopefully I can move it on to a Z-only prepass if it happens to be a performance gain. I would like some controlled performance comparisons, as detailed in the main post, from as many people as possible so I can see if things are improving.

It would be welcome if people could discuss the relative look and feel of the shadowing as well, and how it works with various environmental conditions. There are problems, but I am also looking for improvements too. For example, Morrowind's ambient lighting is rather high; if people experimented with lower ambient settings, if it looks better in combination with shadows and to what effect.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:03 pm

I tried both the 0.6.1 and 0.6.2 versions, and both had the same problem as the original. Everything is shaded with the fog color. I also figured out something else: If I start the game and never touch the mouse, then the framerate is fine, a smooth 45-50 FPS, much better than normal MGE at the same settings. But as soon as I move the mouse, it drops to 0 FPS, and a minute later crashes with a http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9333/86930079.png and http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/684/51574019.png. The display driver thing is normal for me, MGE does that if the wind blows the wrong direction.

I'm curious, what could be causing this?

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:23 am

Something is failing in initialization; so the fog never gets updated. Your card may not support newer texture formats, you'll have to contact me on MSN to really identify the problem.

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:24 am

"6. Bind "toggle distant statics" key in macro editor. This currently toggles shadows instead."

This just toggles distant statics for me. Edit: ok i had to start using Morrowind.exe and not the launcher (which usualy works best for me), otherwise i dont get shadows and i can't toggle them, everything else works. Odd.

The shadows looks great, i only lose 1 FPS with shadows on. Gonna test some more

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:48 am

Any (animated?) banners turn out invisible. The regular shop/settlement ones, http://i29.tinypic.com/fv9vrm.jpg. You can only see the piece of wood swinging at the bottom of what's supposed to be the banner. The ones you can see in the back are distant statics.

Raindrops appear to be invisible too.

So far every attempt to enter an interior cell has crashed my game.

I'm getting these problems with 0.6.2 but they were also present in 0.6.0.

» Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:20 pm

Why not try 178? I have none of those bugs..

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:04 am

I forgot that I had rev186 installed. Using a dev test version of something as a base to install a demo release on top of it probably isn't very helpful for testing... I'll see if things are different with 178.

http://www.tesnexus.com/imageshare/images/57416-1280131346.jpg

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:43 am

While this shadow tech is really awesome and an amazing achievement, is there no way to have it, and caustics and waves? And will you be re-adding MWSE, but cleaner?

» Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:21 am

Just to repeat: There are cut features, which are MWSE, dynamic water, water caustics, exp fog, keep fps constant.
These features are cut for a reason, it's a tech demo. Please don't ask about them.

Emphasis mine.

Hrnchamd, it's amazing to see this almost seven years after Morrowind's release. Keep it up!