Shelter from Magnus' Blaze 3 : III - Morrowind

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:48 pm

i deactivated all shaders but its still present, this must have something to do with atmospheric scattering i think.
on sunrise the whole eastern sky is in orange color with a colorflow to the blue west, while the sun is moving the colorflow changes constantly and because it has visible color-steps (like 16bit), i see rings moving away from the sun.
i think that explains why this only happens on sunset/rise, because only at this time you have a colorflow (transition? verlauf in german) of two much contrasting colors. maybe its possible to increase the color depth of that colorflow?

...i should use the word "color" more often :facepalm:

» Sat May 14, 2011 2:36 am

Transition sounds like the right thing to say. The problem is 24-bit output is not enough for those colours, they are 1 step apart per basis in RGB space. Dithering is required to make it look better.

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:31 pm

After long hesitation (i was so happy with SVN186 and didn't want to miss that interactive water effect) and silent observation of this project i finally made up my mind and did a test install of this great piece of software.
So at first: hats off Hrnchamd. You did some awesome job here. :goodjob: Thanks alot and keep it up.

Here's the report of my first few testing sessions using the latest release.

the good news:

- shadows are so sweet and subtle and fit in so natural that it feels like as they should have been there from the start. Great!
- bending grass when walking over it looks awesome
- underwater godrays've been on my wishlist for so long. Thanks for that.

the bad news:

- reducing the MW view distance to a value below vanilla max (-> 7168) produces http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4884/mgescreenshot311.jpg 'http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2334/mgescreenshot310.jpg' in the landscape
- static objects (including grass) are missing within mid range view distance and suddenly pop in as soon as they reach near/far view distance
- using the same value for exponential fog atmospheric light scattering kicks at a much farer distance and is much weaker than in SNV186 (was better imo)
- looking from above the distortion of reflections on the water surface looks somewhat choppy in comparison to SVN186 and therefore feels less organic and natural (particularly noticeable in shallow water). The watershader in SVN186 was perfectly balanced imho
- overall performance is noticeably worse than in SVN186 (strolling through Vivec i get unplayable FPS -> around 5) probably caused by the increased MW view distance (i usually play with the vd slider at half)
- player/NPC shadows a http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4204/mgescreenshot313.jpg http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6030/mgescreenshot317.jpg than normal (almost black most of the time)
- hdr shader produces no noticeable eye accommodation effect (as phal's very well balanced HDRbloom provided with one of the more recent SVN releases)

the request:

- Any chance to see phal's beautyfully subtle underwater wobble shader integrated into MGEXE's under watershader set? (the threat with the link seems te be lost in forum history). Just let me know if you should need the file.
- Is it possible to slow down and smooth out the somewhat jumpy movement of the underwater 'godrays'? Would produce even more awesomeness :toughninja:
- would be possible to make the shadows also effect the water surface (like http://img.fotocommunity.com/images/Experimente/Spvssyn/Spvssyn-im-Wasser-a22480207.jpg looking down to the water from a bridge). Right now they just magically disappear when casting on liquids.

My rig:

Intel Core2Duo E6600 @ 2.4GHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 5850 (1GB)
4 GB DDR2 Memory (3.25 GB usable due to 32bit OS)
WinXP Pro SP3

Running MW on 1680x1050 [16:10] in fullscreen mode
Shader chain: HDR, underwater effects, sunshafts

Edit: fixed some typos
Edit 2: added new request

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:53 am

Transition sounds like the right thing to say. The problem is 24-bit output is not enough for those colours, they are 1 step apart per basis in RGB space. Dithering is required to make it look better.

yes dithering should be the solution, hope thats possible?

» Fri May 13, 2011 12:19 pm

the good news:

- shadows are so sweet and subtle and fit in so natural that it feels like as they should have been there from the start. Great!
- bending grass when walking over it looks awesome
- underwater godrays've been on my wishlist for so long. Thanks for that.

the bad news:

- reducing the MW view distance to a value below vanilla max (-> 7168) produces http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4884/mgescreenshot311.jpg 'http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2334/mgescreenshot310.jpg' in the landscape
- static objects (including grass) are missing within mid range view distance and suddenly pop in as soon as they reach near/far view distance
- using the same value for exponential fog atmospheric light scattering kicks at a much farer distance and is much weaker than in SNV186 (was better imo)
- looking from above the distortion of reflections on the water surface looks somewhat choppy in comparison to SVN186 and therefore feels less organic and natural (particularly noticeable in shallow water). The watershader in SVN186 was perfectly balanced imho
- overall performance is noticeably worse than in SVN186 (strolling through Vivec i get unplayable FPS -> around 5) probably caused by the increased MW view distance (i usually play with the vd slider at half)
- player/NPC shadows a http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4204/mgescreenshot313.jpg http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6030/mgescreenshot317.jpg than normal (almost black most of the time)
- hdr shader produces no noticeable eye accommodation effect (as phal's very well balanced HDRbloom provided with one of the more recent SVN releases)

the request:

- Any chance to see phal's beautyfully subtle underwater wobble shader integrated into MGEXE's under watershader set? (the threat with the link seems te be lost in forum history). Just let me know if you should need the file.
- Is it possible to slow down and smooth out the somewhat jumpy movement of the underwater 'godrays'? Would produce even more awesomeness :toughninja:

Hey make sure to read the thread through. Many of the "bads" are known about or by design (ie: you should always have ur morrowind view distance set to max while using XE). Also the shader needs to be updated to work with XE...

Replace the line with [technique T0] with [technique T0 < string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; bool requiresHDR = true; >] - no square brackets. That will make the shader work as intended (im using the same one) - (thats if you are using a non-XE HDR shader like the on you mentioned, at first glance you'r post looked like that's what you were using)

The general consensus is that XE holds a huge performance boost so as for your frame rate drops, troubleshoot it a bit. For instance, try turning off high detail shadows if you have those enabled; this is a very common problem when used with certain mashes.

The underwater wobble can probs work to just add [< string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; >] to the tech 0 line.

Also the water reflection distortion is usually completely dependent on the "shape" of the waves. So I don't think anything can really be done unless you tweak the water shader. Just wait and see when phal's water in made compatable

Here's hoping...

*note that I totally expect Hrnchamd to come in and correct the hell out of me and my lack of actual under the hood knowlege

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:49 pm

The underwater wobble can probs work to just add [< string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; >] to the tech 0 line.

Nope, I have a :turtle: ready for anybody converting it.

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:02 am

Hey make sure to read the thread through. Many of the "bads" are known about or by design (ie: you should always have ur morrowind view distance set to max while using XE). Also the shader needs to be updated to work with XE...

Replace the line with [technique T0] with [technique T0 < string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; bool requiresHDR = true; >] - no square brackets. That will make the shader work as intended (im using the same one) - (thats if you are using a non-XE HDR shader like the on you mentioned, at first glance you'r post looked like that's what you were using)

Nope, just using the stock MGE XE shaders that come with the package. But thanks for that hint. I'll try to get the underwater wobble to work.

The general consensus is that XE holds a huge performance boost so as for your frame rate drops, troubleshoot it a bit. For instance, try turning off high detail shadows if you have those enabled; this is a very common problem when used with certain mashes.

Never used that option because it killed my framerate instantly. As already stated i think the performance drop it connected to the necessity of using 100% MW draw distance. If i pull the slider to the left performance increases (but is still worse compared to SVN186) plus i get those bad gaps.

The underwater wobble can probs work to just add [< string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; >] to the tech 0 line.

Thanks. I'll definately give that a try. :foodndrink: I definitely want that :turtle: :wink:

Also the water reflection distortion is usually completely dependent on the "shape" of the waves. So I don't think anything can really be done unless you tweak the water shader. Just wait and see when phal's water in made compatable

Here's hoping...

Hm, i did'nt experiment with changing the wave height setting yet (used the same value as with my 'olde' MGE version). Gonna try this out, thanks.

Edit:
Fail <_< I did the above mentioned changes to the shaders and got them succesfully compiled in the shader editor. But they seem to have (almost) no effect ingame. The HDR-Bloom shader permanently darkens the whole scene a little bit and the underwater wobble just shifts everything a tad down and to the right :confused: No turtles today i guess.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:55 pm

Edit:
Fail <_< I did the above mentioned changes to the shaders and got them succesfully compiled in the shader editor. But they seem to have (almost) no effect ingame. The HDR-Bloom shader permanently darkens the whole scene a little bit and the underwater wobble just shifts everything a tad down and to the right :confused: No turtles today i guess.

Compare your shader to this:

Spoiler

texture lastshader;
texture lastpass;
texture thisframe;

sampler s0 = sampler_state { texture = ; minfilter=linear; magfilter=linear; AddressU=Clamp; AddressV=Clamp;};
sampler s1 = sampler_state { texture = ; minfilter=linear; magfilter=linear; AddressU=Clamp; AddressV=Clamp; };
sampler s2 = sampler_state { texture= ; minfilter=linear; magfilter=linear; AddressU=Clamp; AddressV=Clamp;};

float2 rcpres;
float4 HDR;

const static float rsqrt3 = 0.57735;
const static float scale = 4.0;
const static float rscalep = 0.251;

#define ddd 1.33

const static float2 blurMap2[4] = {
{-ddd,-ddd },
{ ddd,-ddd },
{-ddd, ddd },
{ ddd, ddd }
};

const static float2 blurMap[7] =
{
{-5.0, 0.0625},
{-3.33, 0.1250},
{-1.67, 0.1875},
{ 0.0, 0.2500},
{ 1.67, 0.1875},
{ 3.33, 0.1250},
{ 5.0, 0.0625}
};

float4 blurX( float2 Tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR0
{
clip( Tex.x < rscalep && Tex.y < rscalep);

float4 col = 0;
for (int i=0; i<7; i++){
col += tex2D( s1, Tex + float2(blurMap[i].x*rcpres.x,0) ) * blurMap[i].y;
}
return float4(col);
}
float4 blurY( float2 Tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR0
{
clip( Tex.x < rscalep && Tex.y < rscalep);

float4 col = 0;
for (int i=0; i<7; i++){
col += tex2D( s1, Tex + float2(0,blurMap[i].x*rcpres.y) ) * blurMap[i].y;
}
return float4(col);
}

float3 applyHDR(float3 col) {
float lum = 0.001+0.999*length(col*rsqrt3);
col *= pow(saturate(lum),0.4*HDR.r-0.15);
//col *= exp2(0.21-2*HDR.r/(2+lum));
//col *= 1.1/(1+HDR.r/(3+lum));
col *= 1.0 + 0.3*exp2(-2*HDR.r)-exp2( 2*(sqrt(HDR.r)-lum-1) );
return max(0,col);
}

const static float HDRbloomadjust = 2.4*exp(2*HDR.r);
float4 shrinkhalf( float2 Tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR0
{
clip( Tex.x < rscalep && Tex.y < rscalep);

float3 col = 0;
float l = 0;

for (int i=0; i<4; i++){
col = max(col,tex2D( s0, Tex*(scale) + blurMap2[i]*rcpres ));
}
col = applyHDR(col);

l = ((col.r+col.g+col.B)*0.3333);

col = pow(col,2)/l;

l = pow(l,6);

//l = exp(7*( (1+HDR.r)*l - 1.4*HDR.r )-5);
//l = l/(1+l);

return float4(col, l);
}

float4 addbloom( float2 Tex : TEXCOORD0 ) : COLOR0
{
float3 col = tex2D( s2, Tex );
float4 colbloom = tex2D( s1, Tex/(scale) );

colbloom.rgb /= max(colbloom.r,max(colbloom.g,colbloom.B));

float alpha = (colbloom.a);
col = applyHDR(col);

col *= 1 - 0.72*alpha;
col += saturate(colbloom.rgb) * alpha;

return float4(col, 1.0f);

}

technique T0 < string MGEinterface="MGE XE 0"; bool requiresHDR = true; >
{
pass p2{PixelShader = compile ps_3_0 shrinkhalf();}
pass p3{PixelShader = compile ps_3_0 blurX();}
pass p4{PixelShader = compile ps_3_0 blurY();}
pass p9{PixelShader = compile ps_3_0 addbloom();}
}

The non-hdr darkness occured to me when the < bool requiresHDR = true; > bit wasn't in there. Alternatively, you can just use this one!

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:29 pm

0.8.9 released

Config
Scattering checkbox added in MGEgui.
MGEgui macro editor now autoselects function macro type when clicking an unbound key.
Macro editor now remembers to restore macro type when cancel is clicked.

Shaders
Underwater effects now includes water wobble.

XE
Scattering power adjusted a bit higher. Morrowind fog colour blending for scattering matched to current scattering power.
Menu mode render caching now includes as much rendering as possible. Menus should always run at full fps.
Skydome reflection is altered to avoid fusion with horizon and match photographic references of sea reflection distribution.
Underwater colour in interiors without distant land set to a dark blue-green instead of fog colour.

Assets
Fixed meshes for Mournhold exteriors included. Distant Land regeneration required.
Standard statics override list included for Mournhold statues and trees included in mge3 directory.

The scattering is tuned for not too huge draw distances of around 15-30. Draw distance appears to be http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1158786-mge-382rev178-distant-lands-performance-testing/. All other fps problems, please do a like for like comparison with your regular MGE version with the same settings. XE saves a few fps here and there to use on shadows, it should be about the same in all cases.

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:01 am

0.8.9 report

Config
- Scattering checkbox added in MGEgui. - Confirmed
- MGEgui macro editor now autoselects function macro type when clicking an unbound key. - Confirmed. Saving the planet one less click at a time!
- Macro editor now remembers to restore macro type when cancel is clicked. - Confirmed.

Shaders
- Underwater effects now includes water wobble. - Confirmed. Wobble looks good, underwater light rays still look a bit fast and jumpy to me though.

XE
- Scattering power adjusted a bit higher. Morrowind fog colour blending for scattering matched to current scattering power. - Looks a bit different, still looking good!
- Menu mode render caching now includes as much rendering as possible. Menus should always run at full fps. - Not noticing any menu mode slowdowns.
- Skydome reflection is altered to avoid fusion with horizon and match photographic references of sea reflection distribution. - Will take your word on this one.
- Underwater colour in interiors without distant land set to a dark blue-green instead of fog colour. - Check.

Assets
- Fixed meshes for Mournhold exteriors included. Distant Land regeneration required. - Wonderful!
- Standard statics override list included for Mournhold statues and trees included in mge3 directory. - Check.

---

Comments
- Mournhold trees: I had one tree whose distant model was showing up with black where the transparency should have been. Can anyone else reproduce this?
- Magickal skooma land: Is it April already ^_^ ?
- Overall I'd say MGE XE is really fantastic. The only feature I find myself missing at present is blending in/out of distant statics (the pop-in is a bit Oblivionish at the moment), but I assume this is just due to a lot of work being done on the fogging system and that the static fade in / fade out will return in due time.

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:31 pm

Is this normal that when one returns in water the effect of ripples/vagueness/circles on water disappeared in MGE XE?

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:17 am

it gets more and more impressive everyday with all these new features, sadly im unable to test them as my laptop with morrowind isnt working. could someone post up some screen-shots best highlighting some of the new features so i can see what im missing lol

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Ooo, new features. Regenerating Distant Land as I type this.

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:32 am

Changes to fog/scattering are catastrophic on my end. Bloom is blooming fog and creating a blinding bright wall. Without bloom it looks better but the fog MUST be blue (showing white on my end). It doesn't look right at all imo. If you could get just the horizon to be white that would be what ur looking for I think. Also water seems to be reflecting only/mostly white and has a very white surface; not good looking.

These results are based on clear daytime.

ps:I feel there is allot of value being lost concerning the scattering when sky dome is un-affected. Particularly at dusk/dawn when one side of the sky should be orange and one should be dark.

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:39 am

0.8.9 released

Man, you're on fire. :flamethrower: Awesome! Thanks.

Config
Scattering checkbox added in MGEgui.
MGEgui macro editor now autoselects function macro type when clicking an unbound key.
Macro editor now remembers to restore macro type when cancel is clicked.

Shaders
Underwater effects now includes water wobble.

All working nicely so far. Wobble effect seems to not be present in interior cells with distant land disabled though. Any chance to get it working everywhere?

XE
Scattering power adjusted a bit higher. Morrowind fog colour blending for scattering matched to current scattering power.

Seems to be more present now, but still feels different (more http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/9238/mgescreenshot330.jpg?) compared to http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4033/mgescreenshot290.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2890/mgescreenshot283.jpg.

Menu mode render caching now includes as much rendering as possible. Menus should always run at full fps.
Skydome reflection is altered to avoid fusion with horizon and match photographic references of sea reflection distribution.
Underwater colour in interiors without distant land set to a dark blue-green instead of fog colour.
#snip

Seems to me as this all have been good design decisions. The new horizon line seem to cause http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3619/mgescreenshot328.jpg with shading of the very far away landscape on bad weather though.

Changes to fog/scattering are catastrophic on my end. Bloom is blooming fog and creating a blinding bright wall. Without bloom it looks better but the fog MUST be blue (showing white on my end). It doesn't look right at all imo. If you could get just the horizon to be white that would be what ur looking for I think. Also water seems to be reflecting only/mostly white and has a very white surface; not good looking.

Definitely can't confirm this. To me everything's looking fine independent of lighting condition.

These results are based on clear daytime.

ps:I feel there is allot of value being lost concerning the scattering when sky dome is un-affected. Particularly at dusk/dawn when one side of the sky should be orange and one should be dark.

No problems with that on my side [ http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6436/mgescreenshot333.jpg http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3631/mgescreenshot335.jpg ]

Apart from that I've noticed some two minor glitches:

- When under water there seems to be some sort of http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2908/mgescreenshot321.jpg around some objects.
- The http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1275/mgescreenshot332.jpg (seems to be connected with the atmospheric scattering) is still present (already was an issue with the old snv implementation)

Last but not least: some XE niceness to enjoy: :angel:

[http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/5056/mgescreenshot331.jpg] [http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4057/mgescreenshot339.jpg] [http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/368/mgescreenshot343.jpg]

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:37 pm

The frequency of updates is stunning :shocking: Good job Hrnchamd!

As for the scattering : Can someone post some before/after screens with scattering on and off? Becouse I'm not really sure what this effect does - I assume it is something with the distand fog, right ?

Besides that, is there any way to bloom the line of horizon when looking at water? It is very flat and looks kinda unrealistic for me - here's the http://zapodaj.net/8566d1dde2ce.jpg.html .
And there's a minor poblem I found when wandering around Solstheim - http://zapodaj.net/e189463e9bbc.jpg.html.

» Sat May 14, 2011 2:45 am

Hmm nONatee that's exactly what I wanted to here... seems the problem is on my end. I have no idea what the problem would be though. I just replaced all XE files with their new counterparts, minus any unchanged shaders.

Ideas?

» Fri May 13, 2011 9:21 pm

I experience mouse lag when I don't use the HDR shader. The same thing happens in the regular MGE builds when 'Supply HDR info to shaders' is unchecked.
I reported it a few months ago in the other MGE thread, but it seems the problem wasn't solved. Am I the only one with mouse lag or can't there be done anything about this problem?

» Sat May 14, 2011 2:05 am

a well earned :turtle: for the update :clap:

Is this normal that when one returns in water the effect of vagueness/circles on water disappeared in MGE XE?

if this can help debugging, I've noticed this too

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:16 am

Hey, I thought I would drop in and say thanks. This is an awesome tool! :thumbsup:

» Fri May 13, 2011 10:11 pm

The water is really bad in this MGE XE, but I really like the mod so far. If we could just have the water from the normal MGE, this thing would be perfect. Otherwise, I'm really enjoying this and I haven't noticed too many bugs so far. Fresh install, got the Morrowind Compendium and have been playing a brand new save game. If it weren't for your mod, I probably would have never touched Morrowind again. This is the first time in 5 years that I've played it. (The underwater effects are great, though, I just went for a swim to check it out and I love it. If only we had the effects from MGE though too so we could have foam, and so rain could cause ripples.)

» Fri May 13, 2011 12:30 pm

my screen is orange unfortunately but the game runs fine (Jiub asks my name and i can kind of tell where i'm going because i can see the flames on candles.
even if i turn shaders off its still orange
and its not when i turn off MGE XE
hmm...
anybody get anything similiar?

» Fri May 13, 2011 10:51 am

Hey, Hrnchamd, I was wondering if interiors are being rendered differently then vanilla concerning the interior fog settings. It's just that I use Morrowind Relighted but whenever I activate MGE XE (haven't tested with regular MGE) some of the interiors seem to go all black, pitchblack in fact. After some looking into it I found these interiors had their fog values set to 0. Is it correct when I say that is the cause of my problem?

edit: Hmm, just read about the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Engine_bugs#Fog which sounds like the problem I'm experiencing, even though I don't have an Nvidia card. Anyway, apparently MGE XE is able to trigger this problem on non-Nvidia cards as well.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:53 pm

This is quite revolutionary, but unfortunately with then view distance near clipping range set to mw max, it glitches out when I reduce view distance with fps opt with my mousewheel, which is an essential function of my game. In places like Balmora and Vivec I have to turn the view distance way down and let mge draw the majority of town, a tactic that works with the other mge but can't really do with this one (because of the obvious graphic anomalies).
I trust this is a temporary thing as it's been addressed on the first page, but while on the topic of mw fps opt, another major function it has is the 'no track interruption' for in game music. You should really consider adding is function if you want to phase out the fps opt. If that is added and I can use the mouse wheel to reduce view distance without glitching then I wouldn't really use it anymore.

» Fri May 13, 2011 9:16 pm

Have to agree with Mr Tucker here on the view distance.
Another feature of fps opt that I still use is the crosshair focus feature, that is to say that the crosshair is only there when you look at something, and then times out if no interaction is required.