Shelter from Magnus' Blaze 4 : III - Morrowind

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:55 pm

Excellent work Hrnchamd!

Latest version worked much smoother than previous versions ive tried. At the moment i have two installations of morrowind setup, packed with graphic enhancements, one using MGE 178 and one using MGE XE, and strangely, the one running XE runs alot smoother.

With normal MGE with water shader and sunshaft+ DOF i get avg 20fps. But with XE setup as explained in the OP i get avg 30-40 fps

Seems to work very well indeed, i can set everything on full and not struggle atall

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/SG-Monkey/Morrowind2011-02-1405-14-08-12.jpg

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:14 am

Hi Hrnchamd,

Thank you for all the time and effort you have put into this!

I have a question about the generation of distant land meshes you (or perhaps someone else reading this thread) might be able to answer.

In the Big City project, we've come across a number of meshes that are not converted by the distant land generator. They http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t68/Mr_Swiveller/MGEScreenshot52.jpg and are not reflected by the water. Note that these are not Bethesda meshes but some of the models made by Barabus for his http://www.freewebs.com/barabus/imperialhousing.htm.

How should we go about fixing these meshes? Is there, for instance, a toggle we would have to set in NifSkope in order for these meshes to be rendered? Or are there multiple reasons why the convertor might not process a specific mesh?

I haven't done any work on the distant land generator, as all the distant static functions are in a separate dll with it's own project. It's could be failing anywhere, so I'll turn on debug mode for the next release and you can see what it's doing.
-clip-

If the mesh has empty Children entries for the NiNode or empty Properties for the NiTriShape, then the wizard will usually not be able to process that mesh and exclude it from distant statics creation.

You can fix the mesh using NifSkope by collapsing those Arrays:
* in-turn, select each NiNode or NiTriShape from the 'Block List' view
* from the 'Block Details' view, right-click the green cycle arrow icon in the Value column for 'Children' or 'Properties' (for NiNode or NiTriShape respectively)
* select 'Array' >> 'Collapse'
* resave the mesh

Collapsing will remove any empty entries and should then allow the mesh to be accepted for distant statics creation.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:27 pm

To collapse "children entries", all you need to do is to open the mesh with the latest http://github.com/downloads/Alphax/nifskope/nifskope-1.1.0.0c1fb14-windows.exe, and save your mesh again (make sure "auto sanitize" is checked).

Awesome work and progress lately! I hope you can fix the crossfire problem sometime in the futurure, would be completely awesome to be able to play MW in 50 FPS instead of 25.

Edit: seems like it's fixed

getting around 45'ish FPS now with 12 cells view distance all the time if i turn off that menu cache thing. Really nice!!!

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:28 am

Thank you, Tetchy and Vurt! I will try 'sanitizing' the meshes.

EDIT - I'm afraid that didn't fix it. Carrying out further experiments.

EDIT #2 - tried if using more specific texture paths would work. It didn't, but the experiment did confirm that the engine at least attempts to process the meshes - a mistake I made with one of the texture paths resulted in a warning, something I hadn't seen before.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:56 am

Taking a more accurate approach it seems its not related to this particular version. It happens also with 0.8.11. I only can reproduce this problem in a specific place, the main plaza on Sadrith Mora, under the ex_t_slavemarket. All actors and some objects got this light artifacts under the shadow of this huge mesh. It is possible that they don't know how to read the projected shadow from this mesh? this had any sense to you? The artifacts are clearly poligonal shapes of the actor flashing constantly between shadow and light condition.

Hmm. what distance are they from your viewpoint? All drawing actions may need to be adjusted after this water change.

"SSAO Fast" produces a lot of noise on the grass when they are animating which looks bad. SSAO HQ does not have the same problem.

Which is probably something inherent in the shader quality if I had to guess. Most people that use SSAO Fast should have it disabled in exteriors if they can't stand the noise.

Yeah, downsampling causes nasty stuff like that. I'll revise the SSAO Fast shader.

What does MNICY mean when he says
*MUST HAVE FULLY PATCHED BLOODMOON*
(This order: Morrowind, Tribunal, Tribunal Patch, Bloodmoon, Bloodmoon Patch)

How can I install those two patches like that? I just install the expansions and then install the two patches. I didn't read any requirements about that in the OP post on here.

It just means you need the game patched to latest version (Bloodmoon with patch or GOTY), take youtube descriptions with a pinch of salt, he's relating how he did his install.

Thank you, Tetchy and Vurt! I will try 'sanitizing' the meshes.

EDIT - I'm afraid that didn't fix it. Carrying out further experiments.

Could you post the specific meshes that don't resolve to me?

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:22 pm

Yeah, downsampling causes nasty stuff like that. I'll revise the SSAO Fast shader.

You might find the stuff on dual-resolution ao http://www.slideshare.net/NVIDIA/multilayer-dualresolution-screenspace-ambient-occlusion useful

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:34 pm

Hmm. what distance are they from your viewpoint? All drawing actions may need to be adjusted after this water change.

A couple of meters starts the effect but reach its boiling point when very near. The artifacts appear on both sides of the actor, relative to our position, never in front of us.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:24 am

Excellent, this. Those shadows are very well executed and I really like the new sunshafts. Keep it up!

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:01 pm

My log reports some errors about missing textures:

Spoiler

MGE XE 0.8.13
MWSE dll injected
>> CreateD3DWrapper
-- CreateD3DWrapper calling Direct3DCreate9
<< CreateD3DWrapper
>> D3D Proxy CreateDevice
-- D3D Proxy Factory OK
<< D3D Proxy CreateDevice
>> CreateInputWrapper
<< CreateInputWrapper
-- Proxy Keyboard OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
-- Proxy Mouse OK
>> Distant Land init
>> Distant Land init shader
-- Shader compiled OK
-- Shadow map shader compiled OK
-- Depth shader compiled OK
>> Distant Land init post shaders
>> Post Process shader init
-- Post shader Data Files\shaders\XEshaders\SSAO HQ.fx loaded
-- Post shader Data Files\shaders\XEshaders\Sunshafts.fx loaded
-- Post shader Data Files\shaders\XEshaders\Underwater Effects.fx loaded
-- Post shader Data Files\shaders\XEshaders\Bloom Soft.fx loaded
-- Post shader Data Files\shaders\XEshaders\HDR.fx loaded
-- Shader chain indicates HDR On
<< Post Process shader init
>> Distant Land init depth
>> Distant Land init shadow
>> Distant Land init water
>> Distant Land init world
>> Landscape Load
-- Landscape textures loaded
<< Landscape Load
>> Distant Land init statics
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall14.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_wall13.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_metal_iron_rusty.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv12.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures\tx_dwrv_obsrv11.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_trim03.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_rustpipe10.tga
Cannot load texture data files\textures/tx_dwrv_rustpipe00.tga
-- Distant Land finished loading distant statics
>> Distant Land init fog
<< Distant Land init

I checked my folder, but these .tga files don't exist. However there are .dds files with the same name. The textures are from Darknuts dweemer textures.
Seems like it doesn't cause any ingame errors, but i felt like reporting it

It's not a .13 issue, also happens with previous versions

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:24 am

My log reports some errors about missing textures:

It's not the textures, but meshes which have bad texture paths in them. The game is already looking in data files, so it shouldn't specify Data Files in the mesh at all. I don't know which meshes use those but they probably need correcting or it will show up as bright yellow in distant land.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:28 pm

what's up with the shadows in the latest version? they're completely http://piclair.com/data/l4p4f.jpg sometimes.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:59 am

0.8.14 released

XE

New shadow map softening method. Designed to reduce pixelation of shadows cast at long distances, may look different at close range.
Compare shadow detail with previous versions.
Added clipping plane to distant interior rendering, as cell-size architectural meshes didn't match due to mesh reduction.
Depth bias for drawing shadows increased to avoid flashing triangle artifacts on nearby NPCs.
Shadows project on gradual transition alphas like hair better, blending all the way to the edge instead of causing a shadow line.
General performance improvements in interiors.

Config

Distant land generator converts and regenerates mips for all distant DXT1a textures, black polygons around some distant trees should no longer occur.
"Use morrowind.ini" button renamed to "Use current load order".

Shaders

Sunshaft sundisc colouring and sunset colour scattering improved. Watch a sunset in combination with atmospheric scattering.
SSAO Fast shader rewritten due to the temporal aliasing on grass. Please test it and compare the quality and fps to SSAO HQ.

Assets

mh_pavilion_gate mesh updated to not cover the passage with a blocking polygon. Does it still abut other meshes properly?

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 am

0.8.14 report

XE

New shadow map softening method. Designed to reduce pixelation of shadows cast at long distances, may look different at close range. Compare shadow detail with previous versions.
-Looks great!
Added clipping plane to distant interior rendering, as cell-size architectural meshes didn't match due to mesh reduction.
-Never noticed a problem.
Depth bias for drawing shadows increased to avoid flashing triangle artifacts on nearby NPCs.
-Never noticed this
Shadows project on gradual transition alphas like hair better, blending all the way to the edge instead of causing a shadow line.
-Looks much better

Config

Distant land generator converts and regenerates mips for all distant DXT1a textures, black polygons around some distant trees should no longer occur.
-Checked all of my trees, can confirm there are no black polygons
"Use morrowind.ini" button renamed to "Use current load order".
-Good idea

Shaders

Sunshaft sundisc colouring and sunset colour scattering improved. Watch a sunset in combination with atmospheric scattering.
-And here I thought the sunset couldn't get prettier. Awesome!!
SSAO Fast shader rewritten due to the temporal aliasing on grass. Please test it and compare the quality and fps to SSAO HQ.
-I don't usually use SSAO Fast but I tested this for you. Not sure if there is an FPS boost since I get 60 with both, but noise on animated alphas (grass, trees) has definitely been reduced since the previous version. Good job.

Assets

mh_pavilion_gate mesh updated to not cover the passage with a blocking polygon. Does it still abut other meshes properly? I think this was something Aeven had asked about, so I'll let a TR person decide if what's been done is good.

Questions:
-Do you plan to implement 3D water waves? What are your opinions on the implementation of them in the main branch of MGE?
-Is it possible to make the "disable music" function in the macro editor a "toggle music" function? I'd like to be able to disable music in dungeons as I find the dungeon ambiance to be much more immersive but right now I have to manually turn music back on through the menu after hitting the button I have tied to disable music.

Comment:
Also just wanted to say that MW/MGE blending looks much better from 0.8.12. Didn't get a chance to say so before you released .14

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:46 am

still playing myar aranath, and with 0.8.14 i get an error @distant land generation

http://www6.pic-upload.de/16.02.11/kox3emu4pc8r.jpg

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:21 am

I don't play Myar Aranath (or any other terrain-adding mods except TR), and the DL generator keeps terminating with fatal OutOfMemoryException while generating statics. This never happened on 0.8.13.

I don't get any errors when generating DL with the regular MGE. With XE, I always get two non-fatal errors concerning http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8353. I don't remember the exact message and can't check it right now, but it is about OutOfMemoryException while generating distant statics. The grass was still showing fine.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:51 pm

what this really needs is support for low view distances.
I have quadcore at 2.4 ghz, a radeon hd 6850 4gb of ram and MGEXE is killing me, even with low quality distant land.
still impressive, though! =)

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Would it be possible to have the Sunshafts shader take the clouds into account again instead of shining through them?

what this really needs is support for low view distances.
I have quadcore at 2.4 ghz, a radeon hd 6850 4gb of ram and MGEXE is killing me, even with low quality distant land.
still impressive, though! =)

I don't know what your settings are, but I have a 3.16 Ghz Dual Core CPU, a Radeon HD 4850 512 MB graphics card, and 4 gb of ram and I can run MGEXE at a resolution of 1280x1024 with 4x AA, 8x AF, a world texture resolution of 2048, mesh quality high, animated grass, exponential fog and a variety of shaders at a decent framerate.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:56 pm

@Kurzschlusskuh

You can check Your system for some garbage or trojans - with that specs You should run MGEXE without any problems. I have similar spec's as povuholo, C2D @ 3 Ghz, Radeon HD 4870 and 2 GB of RAM and I'm running newest MGEXE with all avaible shaders (of course if there's two blooms I only use 1), at 1680x1050, 4xAA and 8xAF, exp. fog, and distand land settings on high without lockups. My view distance is 20.

--

As for the newest MGEXE, I've managed to do some testing and seems that all MWSE functionality is finally back

With older versions the 'Mel's Teleportation" plugin was unusable. Also, the performance difference between svn186 and newest XE is really noticeable - and there's much less CTD's, but maybe it's my subjective feeling. The sunsets are so beautifull now that I can stop & stare at them, especially in Solstheim. The menu caching seems to work, mouse responds slighty faster. What else.. everything seems to be perfect =)

I have some questions tho:

- When loading a game with Distand Land turned on on default, as soon as the load bar goes to the end, the music kicks in, but I have to wait a couple of seconds before I can actually play - when Distant Land is turned off on loading, the game starts normally. I remember that this started to occur to me in some first svn revision of the main MGE. What could possibly cause this?

- Purely theoretical now - since there is some modifications to the sky dome since recent XE releases, is there a possibility of volumetric clouds?

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:05 pm

I don't play Myar Aranath (or any other terrain-adding mods except TR), and the DL generator keeps terminating with fatal OutOfMemoryException while generating statics. This never happened on 0.8.13.

I don't get any errors when generating DL with the regular MGE. With XE, I always get two non-fatal errors concerning http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8353. I don't remember the exact message and can't check it right now, but it is about OutOfMemoryException while generating distant statics. The grass was still showing fine.

This was a problem for me in 8.12 and 8.13. Have not regenerated yet for 8.14. The issue for me was when I had static size at zero. It would hit 1.5gb of memory and dump. Don't know if its got some ceiling or if its with the interaction with the OS. Trimming the textures down to 2048 solved it for me, but only barely. Pushing static size up to 20 made it top off at 1.3gb memory used peak, and it succeeded.

I assumed it was just me choosing static size that small as I had never set it below 100 before, and my new graphic card pushed me to expand my horizons as far as I could.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:15 pm

I have similar spec's as povuholo, C2D @ 3 Ghz, Radeon HD 4870 and 2 GB of RAM and I'm running newest MGEXE with all avaible shaders (of course if there's two blooms I only use 1), at 1680x1050, exp. fog, and distand land settings on high without lockups. My view distance is 20.

i run it with a gtx 280 @1920x1200, 2xAA, 8xAF, same view distance, mesh quality medium, and i'm glad if i get 20 fps, depends on region, grazelands are not bad, seyda neen i get 13-15 fps...

I can run MGEXE at a resolution of 1280x1024 with 4x AA, 8x AF

well on 1280x1024 you can also run crysis on max settings :hubbahubba:

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:36 pm

You both should check the OS enviroment - optimalisation of Your PC is a key for better framerates. I always liked to keep my system sharp, and I'm a fan of OC, so maybe my results can be a little higher than "common" people.

BTW. From where I live, the HD 4870 is "High End"

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:18 am

i run it with a gtx 280 @1920x1200, 2xAA, 8xAF, same view distance, mesh quality medium, and i'm glad if i get 20 fps, depends on region, grazelands are not bad, seyda neen i get 13-15 fps...

i noticed that DoF is killing my fps so i deactivated it and can play at ~30fps with no huge breakdowns anywhere.
i only have a gtx260 @ 1920x1200, 0 min static size, 12 viewdistance, 4xAA, 16xAF (i think one should always use max AF at these high resolutions - makes everything looking very clean)

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:29 pm

You both should check the OS enviroment - optimalisation of Your PC is a key for better framerates. I always liked to keep my system sharp, and I'm a fan of OC, so maybe my results can be a little higher than "common" people.

well a clean "OS environment" is always good, but i really don't believe that those low fps are from a "unclean" os environment ... this effects more the loading time, crashes etc.. i can imagine that i get 1-3 fps with a fresh windows install.
and with all those mods and replacers i also don't wonder why the fps are low... and thats basically the reason because we cant actually compare our mw fps :\
btw my GPU load is in MW mostly on 100% ...

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:47 am

I have twice attempted to regenerate the distant land meshes and textures using MGEXE 0.8.14, but received the following error message:

A fatal error occurred creating the distant statics files. Distant land setup cannot continue.
D3DERR_INVALIDCALL: Invalid call (-2005530516)

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:52 am

compared AO fast and hq, same fps and looks the same, maybe i should have taken screenshots to compare ... i think i'm gonna use hq now