Shield function in Combat : V

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:31 pm

any thoughts on improving how shields will work? most players use swords and melee weapons so most players also use shields. what can improve?

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:34 pm

I think it should depend on timing like in Oblivion, but the amount of damage you take should be determined by your block skill. You can see the skill as endurance and agility you gain with your shield arm, thus reducing damage.

» Fri May 13, 2011 10:24 am

It depends on what you block. If you block a sword with a shield, you should take no damage. If you block a giant's kick with a shield, you should take a ton of damage.

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:33 pm

-Take a little damage.
Sort of. I think a successful block should absorb an amount of damage (so potentially all of the damage) from an attack, or, if Beth want to make it more complex, an amount of damage that varies based on the strength and size of the attack/attacker/attacker's weapon. Take a dagger thrust on your shield? No damage. Take a mountain giant's "tree club" on your shield? Better than the shield not being there, but still BAM!

-Player timing.
The block skill (or its equivalent) should have a significant effect, as should perks, but Oblivion's player-controlled blocking was a vast improvement over Morrowind's automatic blocking, and I'd hate for Skyrim to be a step backwards.

» Fri May 13, 2011 3:16 pm

It depends on what you block. If you block a sword with a shield, you should take no damage. If you block a giant's kick with a shield, you should take a ton of damage.

This. I wasn't even thinking about giants. But even a warhammer should seriously dent your shield and possibly cause an arm fracture.

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:25 am

There was a mod for Oblivion (think it was deadly reflex) which meant you had to time your blocks. The effectiveness of the block gradually decreased, so you couldn't just constantly block - you had to anticipate the attack and block to get the least damage. Blocking with a shield should be a lot easier than blocking without one. Maybe the rate at which the effectiveness deteriorates would be quicker when blocking without a shield.

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:16 pm

Bleh... I hated Deadly Reflex's block mechanic. I think it should go with a combination of Morrowind and Oblivion's techniques: A chance for a reflexive block/parry against a melee attack, as well as a button to block with the shield. (I hated how my shield "Ceased to exist" mechanically when fighting without the button pushed, similar to the problem with the orignal Mount & Blade, which was fixed for Warband)

Improving Block should also improve the ability to Parry: By timing an attack to before the enemy's makes contact, you bash their weapon aside, and deliver a strike of your own. None of this Static Edge Block garbage from Oblivion. Wielding two weapons (or weapon and shield, or weapon and unarmed strike) should permit you to parry a parry, but with only a chance of delivering an (even weaker) riposte. Holding a sword and waiting for your foe to hit it is just stupid.

And blocking when unarmed should be effective, unlike in Oblivion.

Actually... I think manual blocking should only work against unarmed strikes. However, the chance to block in melee should be higher than it was in Morrowind. To compensate, damage should still be recieved on a successful block (Due to the abstract nature of Hitpoints), and the time to recoil from a block should be reduced. Block chance should equal skill level modified by shield size, along with penalties for attacking from the side (and no chance to block an attack against the back)

Trying to block in Oblivion was way too slow, and it took too long to recover from the hit. Even staggering shouldn't quite drop the guard.

» Fri May 13, 2011 12:21 pm

It matters... if it's hardcoe mode than it should be 1B 2A. If not 1A 2B... I hope you understand what I'm saying

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:55 pm

Hiding behind your shield should be effective, but not as effective. Anyone hitting you with significant force (including arrows) should have a chance of staggering you. Even more, a smart enemy should be able to attack above or below the shield if you just hold it in front of you.

A timed block should deflect the blow better, with less damage and less chance of being staggered. Block skill should widen the "sweet spot" for a successful timed block and lower the damage received as well.

Shields would be a good place to implement Damage Threshold, rather than Damage Resist, so that successfully blocking any lower powered weapon would negate virtually all the damage, but high powered weapons would be able to hurt you even through the shield due to sheer impact.

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:30 pm

I think it was fine in Oblivion and it was one of my favorite features. Heck it's the only reason I use a Shield besides Enchanting.

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:22 am

How about implementing shield bash?

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:43 am

How about implementing shield bash?

I believe we've had confirmation about this in GI. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:47 pm

Actually... thought of a better idea: Give the shield its own hitbox. Any blow that hits the shield is negated up to a certain damage threshhold. When a weapon is drawn, the shield should passively be held in a defensive stance. When you attack, it automatically moves out of the way. A higher block level would increase the reaction speed of the shield to actively and automatically move to intercept blows. Conversely, successive attacks should come from a number of directions, and there should be little to no recoil for hitting the shield.

In order to make an opponent recoil, a Parry should be used, hitting the enemy's weapon away with a timed strike or Shield bash.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:29 am

timing, shield bash, negate damage (especially ranged), some shields should reflect spells on block, hiding behind shield will protect you until it breaks

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:21 pm

Bashan, blockan, shieldan.
All day, erryday.

That's what shields for.

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Vadagar brings up a fun point: Shields with spell reflect (Such as the artifact Spellbreaker) should be able to automatically reflect spells with proper timing.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:53 am

I'm strictly against turning TES in to a fighting game with combos, targeting everything with mouse and all the rest of the stuff that relays on player skill. This is what fighting, action and shooter games are for I don't want to see any of this in RPG.

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Here are my thoughts

Eh, I'm not too much of a fan of OB's, MW's or Deadly Reflexes's handle on blocking.

No matter what, a nord with 100 str and 100 skill on blunt with a daedric warhammer should completely crush the shield arm of a lowly bandit attempting to block with an iron shield or dagger. If you ask me, there needs to be a threshold a shield can take before damage is transferred to the user, and a heavier shield will, generally, have a high threshold than a smaller shield of the same material (depends on design, thickness, etc). It is extremely silly how a lowly bandit with an iron dagger can do the scenario above and still be okay to continuously slash and hardly take a lick of damage, while you are stumbling like a moron.

Also, stamina should matter even more. Taking a block will consume stamina. Holding a shield in front will continuously consume stamina. Running out of stamina will remove 90% of blocking effectiveness, at the very least, as you are just too tired to hold out your shield and block an incoming blow. Furthermore, the heavier the shield, the more stamina is consumed, while a lighter shield will consume less when drawn out.

In addition, one should be able to shield bash as a way to stumble an opponent, and possible cause damage if there are spikes attached. However, the heavier the shield, the slower it is to bash someone and it's also quite taxing to one's stamina. Also, some shields it just may be impossible to bash someone with, unless you charge with the shield in front (like a tower shield).

Lastly, I do think the block skill should factor in how effective someone is with a shield. It's one thing to just stick a plank of wood completely vertically and take the full brunt of the attack, it's another to know how to move the shield at an angle to deflect the attack in an effective manner in order to avoid having your arm turn into dust and keeping yourself relatively unharmed. Blocking, in essence, will turn from blocking to deflecting when one's knowledge of how to block increases. This also means those who are extremely skilled with shield should be able to hold smaller and lighter shields and still pretty effective at blocking, as opposed to someone who doesn't really know how to block and requires a bigger and heavier shield to save their butt. By increasing the block skill, the damage threshold will increase, along with shield bashing effectiveness, and a reduction in stamina when blocking.

These are just my basic thoughts. Still need to go more in-depth on how strength, endurance, stamina, the weight of an opposing weapon on a shield, and so on.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:34 pm

I personally think with a revamped weapon system, say instead of a iron longsword doing 13 dps it would be related to a cutting or thrusting damage which in itself would do little to nothing to a shield, but if a mace were to hit it, it would have a blunt based damage which could ahve cause greater fatigue loss, stumbling, and paralise(sp?).

This in turn causes far more damage to shield carriers but in turn could be parried more easily which is a player skill from timing the use of a shield or secondary weapon for that matter. And should a 'shield' skill arise it would decease the damage taken/increase oppurtunity time to perform a parry (which should start out extremely, extremely low as it could make it repetive or game breaking)

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:47 pm

I'm strictly against turning TES in to a fighting game with combos, targeting everything with mouse and all the rest of the stuff that relays on player skill. This is what fighting, action and shooter games are for I don't want to see any of this in RPG.

Since TES has moved on since Morrowind from strict RPG to Action RPG (with that being heavily advertised as an important feature), I'd strongly recommend you consider getting it on PC so you can mod it back to a strict character skill based system. I honestly do not believe that player skill will be removed from any aspect of the game by the developers at this point.

» Fri May 13, 2011 9:54 am

I've always preferred Duke Patricks combat mods over Deadly Reflex. Duke knows from real world experience what medieval combat is like using real weapons.

Timed block is not really a factor especially with larger shields - with a buckler yeah maybe, but a shield already as big as your midsection - just keep your shield up. Hence the poll options would not allow me to vote.

I hope they have no recoil (after hitting a shield you the attacker bounce back 5-10 feet) and that most of the damage is absorbed/deflected by the shield.

With games like this it is always amazing to me what rules and game standards and settings are implemented in order to give the allusion/illusion of RPG. Like Heavy armor versus light armor training. A game like this could very well divide those up but think about it ... you could take trainings to this day on sword fighting from fencing, Chinese tai chi/wu shu, medieval combat, kendo, etc but what schools of armor wearing training are there? As in 'Oh you can't even put that armor on your armor skill is not high enough.' The real skill is dodging and armor just helps to minimize and deflect the damage when you are hit.

Then further what type of armor - leather and chain would protect more from sharpness but do nothing much to deflect from blunt trauma. Heavy armor would at least help spread blunt force out more, but due to openings be weaker to sharp points. Making it more about the armor than the skill - well the main skill is dodging and blocking.

I'd make it so that what kind or armor is a perk and then a general armor/dodging skill is the rating. The perk is just to learn how to wear and maintain the armor - no need for advanced training so much - a person just gets better and dodging and blocking and as they find better armor then good for them.