Shields and their mechanics of use

Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:08 am

So, I got to milling around random thoughts, as I often do, and I came upon something rather interesting. For all our talk on weapon feel, armor variety and all that, nobody ever seems to acknowledge shields could also do with"Feeling" different.


To effectively discuss the topic, we have to take some assumptions based on what we know is current in the game, along with the facts themselves. Things change, so it couldn't matter in the long run.

What do we know about Shields in Skyrim?

1: They're Timing-oriented. You can't stonewall the shield until the enemy attacks, as in Oblivion.
2: Bashing is much more active. Holding the shield as a "Power attack" is seemingly how you initiate a bash.

And that pretty much does it for what we actually know, but what can we assume within reason?

1:Shields have a "Window of Defense" where they are in their active defensive state and sufficient at blocking an attack.
2: Multiple shields exist, that'd be awfully boring to only have one shield.
3: Bashing is an option, not a requirement. The player can lower the shield any time in the "Window of Defense" without initiating a bash.
4: There is some precaution taken against "Tap Blocking" in that regard, some kind of Delay from actually pressing the trigger assigned to the shield, to the actual defensive viability of it.


Now, let's take all that, and spice up the gameplay of defensiveness a bit?

As far as we know, there's only one "Shield" type in the game, the Shield. But anyone with a passing interest in fantasy-lore Arms and Armor, can tell you there's quite a few different styles of shields, as there are different styles of blades.

I'm not suggesting something as unreasonable as every cultural variant of the shield be covered, but I'm concerned a very important aspect of the game might not be as fleshed out as it could be.


Much like you have Short Swords, Longswords and Claymores, why not at least give 3 basic archetypes of shield, to suit the player's taste?


Buckler/Targe: Quick to draw, quicker to bash. Perfect for "Twitch" oriented gamers who prefer to use their defense as an equally effective offensive tool.

Standard(KIte/Round): Slower to draw than the Buckler, but a much longer "Window of Defense", good for the General user that wants the shield as a defensive option.

Tower: Slower to the draw than a standard as befitting their size, these heavy, arm-mounted Fortresses have an exceptionally large "window of defense" but are very slow to initiate a bash, rendering them a purely defensive option effective for taking on multiple enemies simultaneously.

Surely some of you Men(And Women)-at-arms out there must have some feelings about your unsung protector.
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Big mike
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:42 am

1: They're Timing-oriented. You can't stonewall the shield until the enemy attacks, as in Oblivion.



/sigh

:sadvaultboy:
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brandon frier
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:25 am

LIke the ideas.
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Undisclosed Desires
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:25 am

I like it although I would like the shield to have different effects, maybe when you shield bash?

1. A buckler may only do slight damage to an opponent but can be used faster as you said.

2. A kite shield has to potency to stagger an opponent but is slower than a buckler.

3. A tower shield has to ability to knock an opponent down with it's massive area.

That's just my thought as well, I think the idea of different types of shields with variances between them is awesome, nice job. :)
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Vicky Keeler
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:50 am

I like it although I would like the shield to have different effects, maybe when you shield bash?

1. A buckler may only do slight damage to an opponent but can be used faster as you said.




The only reason I didn't include damage, is because we don't even know if Shields will cause physical harm, we just know they stagger and leave the enemy open for an attack.


I didn't want to extrapolate a lot of assumptions. If I was going to, Bucklers would have actually caused the Most Bash damage-per-second, Towers the least, but Towers full-on Knock down the opponent(s) hit.
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Jodie Bardgett
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:10 am

Sounds well thought-out and could make using shields a lot more diverse and interesting. I pretty much agree with all your ideas and see no flaws.

I doubt something like this will be in the game but it would make for an awesome mod to make blocking and shield choice a lot more interesting.
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Charlotte Lloyd-Jones
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:12 pm

/sigh

:sadvaultboy:



It makes sense sort of. I think it was necessary to create some vulnerability with the shield, so that players who want to use two-handed weapons don't feel like they're basically not wearing armor, but that was also part of my inspiration for the Tower Branch of shield. Something for those people that liked to Stonewall. Sure, it's not Perfect, but perfect is an unattainable quality.

It was either that, or make Bashing passive like in Oblivion and Make shields considerably more Fragile, though I'll wait until I feel it out for myself to say if it was the right direction.

Morrowind on the other hand, had an entirely passive shield system.
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Sarah Kim
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:47 am

So, I got to milling around random thoughts, as I often do, and I came upon something rather interesting. For all our talk on weapon feel, armor variety and all that, nobody ever seems to acknowledge shields could also do with"Feeling" different.

Well you have strange feeling of genericness after Oblivion ?

1: They're Timing-oriented. You can't stonewall the shield until the enemy attacks, as in Oblivion.

Exactly putting an Tower Shield Category will allow have stonewall defense, but will slow to draw shield,
more smaller ones thats has smaller protection and durability but faster to draw shields can be done also.
2: Bashing is much more active. Holding the shield as a "Power attack" is seemingly how you initiate a bash.

So there can be draw speed similar to weapon speed, there can be also damage parameter thats will applied after bash and chance to stagger enemy.

Much like you have Short Swords, Longswords and Claymores, why not at least give 3 basic archetypes of shield, to suit the player's taste?

But you know after Oblivion there is great reduction of variability of equipment, polearms and spears sunk into Oblivion as well as variations of blades by material and type, staffs start work in not traditional sense, and mutate into generic boomstick, shields suffer also.

But now I believe nothing stops devs return variability to game, I believe Long Bows and Short Bows can be done, variability of blades can return, throwing weapons will be available again, and of course shields can be in different types.

Nice to see some additional features like on block enchants and on strike enchants fro shields
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Laura Tempel
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:41 am

Exactly putting an Tower Shield Category will allow have stonewall defense, but will slow to draw shield,
more smaller ones thats has smaller protection and durability but faster to draw shields can be done also.



There's actually still a window of vulnerability if you understand how I described them. While they hold much longer, if you hold too long, the game will instigate the "Bash" and if you drop it, there's a kind of "Cooldown" between when the trigger is pressed, and when the shield is defensibly viable again, simulating the weight of these behemoths. (The shield will still begin raising on command, but won't be in the proper position, leaving you open for a small amount of time between the press of the trigger, and when it's actively blocking)
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Lakyn Ellery
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:06 am

There's actually still a window of vulnerability if you understand how I described them. While they hold much longer, if you hold too long, the game will instigate the "Bash" and if you drop it, there's a kind of "Cooldown" between when the trigger is pressed, and when the shield is defensibly viable again, simulating the weight of these behemoths. (The shield will still begin raising on command, but won't be in the proper position, leaving you open for a small amount of time between the press of the trigger, and when it's actively blocking)

Exactly I understand you right but Tower shield has slower speed so time to bash will also longer so time under shield wall protection will also longer, besides having speed parameter for shields as basis will allow balancing it with patches and mods as well have perks and skills affect it, so we can make faster tower shields or slower ones, also nice if shields will not add to armor rating as armors do, but have actually protection area like it was in M&B so they can protect even if putted on back and stop arrows as collision wall at last from same or fewer material, better material can pierce such shield.
Such shied will weight a lot but will be durable and have larger protection area, time to draw and block will be longer but when putted it will longer protect as stonewall, because of his slow speed time to bash will also longer then smaller shields has.
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Reanan-Marie Olsen
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:08 pm

Good idea.

I have some experience with shields and steel melee weapons in real life. Basically, there are four main powers shields do provide.

1. Passive defense: it is just "there". More noticeable with larger shields. Even if you are completely oblivious to attack, there is a chance that it will go into your shield hanging there, not into your body.
2. Active defense: what we seem to have in Skyrim. Good, important thing.
3. Shield bash: powerful outward blow, tend to throw enemy back, sometimes he lose stance and focus for a while. Usually sword attack follows in the opening.
4. Shield ram: cruel forward punch with the brim of a shield, usually straight to the face. Basically, your shield works like a giant knuckles in this move.

Shields also do have several weaknesses.

1. Most of them are kinda heavy. It's not a problem if you are strong enough, but for general population it is, yes.
2. Shields always cover parts of your vision field. This effect is not important with bucklers, but with round and kite shields it can't be ignored. You especially can't see legs and whatever goes down there.
3. When you are defending from top attack, you practically lose all vision field. And you still don't see anything down there, which opens up first bread-and-butter anti-shield "combo": feint strike to the head, provoking raising of a shield, then slash enemy to the left leg around the knee.
4. Agile enemy can use your own shield against you, if shield is large enough. Basically you can't hit through your own shield, and if agile and crafty enemy goes very close, then you can't hit him, except with bash, which is not always appropriate.

Next, I do want to say several words on possible shield types. Sure, there are loads of various shields in world history, but they tend to relate to one of these 5 types.

1. Light shield. This one is probably unnecessary in Skyrim. Basically it's light wooden frame with leather strung on it. Shields of this type been used mostly in the ancient world, and they were useless in melee (that is why it is unnecessary in Skyrim), being designed specifically as protection from arrows and other projectiles.

2. Small shield. Buckler, targe. They are ligh (although they are usually made from steel, they are small enough), require most precision and often are used as an attack weapon, in bashes and ramming punches.

3. Medium shield. Round shield, smaller kite shields, not covering your leg completely. Medium is medium.

4. Large shield. Oval shields of some african tribes, elongated kite shield, "upside down teardrop" shield, probably roman scutum. They all are massive, they tend to cover most of your body, and they are heaviest shields you can realistically use in melee combat.

5. Tower shield. This shield is definitely covers all your body, from head almost to feet. If there are no holes, you can't even see your enemy. It is usually very heavy, and it is NOT designed for fencing. Most famous shield of this type is european pavise, which has been used by crossbowmen. Actually, by their assistants: they went in pairs, one carried crossbow and bolts, and another dragged the pavise to cover them both from enemy fire, while they are holding good position on some hill or whatever. Tower shield is semi-mobile fortress, and in my opinion, there is no place for true tower shields in Skyrim.

Basically, three types of the shield are "good": small, medium and large, while light and heavy probably should stay overboard.


Now, comments about shields and Skyrim gameplay. Let's check through list of shield "powers".

2, 3 - they seem to nailed it completely.

4 - may be used as a version of 3, for example you usually ram punch with buckler and you rarely do it with large teardrop shield, it is too heavy and slow to do so.

1 - one we basically lost. And I don't really know if it is good idea or not (meaning in accordance with current game mechanic, in general it definitely is a good idea), but in my opinion it should come back. Hit location detection + large shield (probably draining lot of stamina, making you move slower as counterbalance) = you don't really have to block against most attacks coming from your front-left side. But you are not protected from anywhere else, of course, so this shield type may be useless against, say, two-three agile bandits.

Now, on weaknesses.

1.1. Weight as in encumbrance. Obvious inherent weakness of medium and large shields. Small shields don't really weigh much.

1.2. Weight as in combat efficiency dropping factor. Again, most important for medium and especially large shields. Basically, your speed and stamina must drop. Heavily armored crusaders don't really care about that, but if your character tries to be more agile, then he probably won't be used anything except buckler, and that is how it should be.

2. Passive vision impairment. I don't think that it is that important in game, because our screen provides us with much narrower tunnel vision than our eyes. Shield probably should be always visible down there, but it is wrong from gameplay point to make it annoying.

3. Active-usage temporary blindness. Now that probably is important enough, to animate shield defences so that it covers your vision, but... not really good idea. In 3rd person you won't be troubled with this at all, and it is just annoying. It should be short and it never should cover all your limited 1st person vision field.

4. Sneaky agile enemies using your shield against you. While that would be nice, I don't think that it would be in. Although... sounds like a good perk for thief-type characters. So probably it is not bad mechanic. Basically it could go like this: when your enemy, who has this perk, charges and stays close enough, he is protected by your shield just as you are. He stays "glued" somewhat, and he can choose time to break and attack. And you are annoyed and trying to bash him away, but you not always have stamina for this. More than that, when you do bash him, all it does is he jumps away, completely not wounded by your shield (if it's a perk, its' bonus should be noticeable).


So, suggested difference between shield types goes like this:

1. Small shields.

  • Weak, almost absent passive protection.
  • Active defense almost require perfection in timing.
  • Shield bash is animated as ramming punch, it is way more damaging than other shield bashes, but it staggers enemy very little.
  • Low weight, stamina is not drained much by using it.
  • Speed is almost not penalized.
  • Enemies can't hide behind it.


2. Medium shields.

  • Noticeable passive protection, provide effective cover from arrows even when you don't care about it.
  • Active defense is way easier, you can "turtle" with it.
  • Shield bash is what it is, it staggers your enemy and damages him. It has some chance to drop your enemy down.
  • Noticeable weight, stamina is somewhat drained by with every active move, and it is drained for some points even for equipping of the shield itself.
  • Speed is somewhat penalized, but character is still an "agile fighter", but not a "ninja".
  • Enemies can hide behind it. Shield bash helps to get rid of them, yeah.


3. Large shields.

  • Awesome passive protection. Most attacks from one side are ignored. If you are trying to snipe enemy who is carrying this type of shield, you'd better lay a headshot or wait until he shows his back.
  • Active defense is easy. You can put it out, like in Oblivion, although it will drain your stamina continuously.
  • Shield bash is very slow and not effective as damaging move, but enemy will stagger and have a good chance to fall down.
  • Damn heavy. Stamina is drained like there's no tomorrow.
  • Speed is heavily penalized. This kind of equipment is not compatible with various acrobatic feats. Basically, you can only turtle-and-counterattack with this shield. Fortunately, this combat style is popular.
  • Enemies can easily hide behind it. Shield bash helps to get rid of them, but it is harder to even perform shield bash with such heavy boars, when there is a nasty ninja holding it from the other side.


Phew, that's all I have to say about shields. Oh, wait, another one... shield spikes. Good for bashing, bad for ninjas trying to hide behind your spiked shield. Now I'm done, yeah.
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Bigze Stacks
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:37 am

[Snip..]


That's good, I wish I could address every point, but a quote, along with proper responses would quickly fill the entire page.

Generally speaking though, I tried to keep, especially in a conceptual phase, everything very simple and basic. It allows for a lot more discussion(as evident by your great post) but also creates less points-of-failure in a design.

One thing in particular I hadn't considered though, was stamina costs for everything. Considering how stamina is supposed to play a larger overall role in Skyrim than it has in past entries, I probably should have accounted for that.
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Solina971
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:21 am

I like the idea. Not much to add aside from a thumbs up. :thumbsup:
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Killer McCracken
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:10 pm

Nice idea
Of course with my twitch skills I'll probably end up using the tower shields even if I like targes best :sad:
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sas
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:12 am

That's good, I wish I could address every point, but a quote, along with proper responses would quickly fill the entire page.

Generally speaking though, I tried to keep, especially in a conceptual phase, everything very simple and basic. It allows for a lot more discussion(as evident by your great post) but also creates less points-of-failure in a design.

One thing in particular I hadn't considered though, was stamina costs for everything. Considering how stamina is supposed to play a larger overall role in Skyrim than it has in past entries, I probably should have accounted for that.

Sure thing, glad you liked it. I am all for careful design without overflow of poorly-thought features. The one last point which needs to be brought is that in my post there is information for, well, maximum realism possible for shield implementation in TES. There are only two things which aren't covered, and both are better suited for pure action games, not RPG.

1. Block direction. Kinda obvious in itself, but this feature is probably too detailed for TES melee combat. And it can feel pretty immersive without it, thank you very much.

2. Various "acrobatic" (in very loose sense) tricks with shields. "Athletic" actually is more suitable word. For example, if you are strong enough, your enemy is light enough, and you are using medium shield (let's say it's round), then you can bow down almost to crouching, hit your enemy with the bottom part of shield brim into stomach, hips or groin area, which will cause him to bow down, kinda lying on your shield. Then you "explode" in your legs, rising up. Your enemy flies, either over your head behind you (if you were crouched enough) or far forward. Other similar power-"athletic" maneuvers are possible, but I don't see any way to include them in game except maybe as finishing animations for shield blow.

Again: this is maximum information about shields you can work with, other details are mostly cosmetic and unnecessary. Basically, if somehow all of it will be included into either vanilla game or some shield mod, there would be nothing to add on this issue. "Perfection" is such a nice word.
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Nathan Risch
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:56 am

Sure thing, glad you liked it. I am all for careful design without overflow of poorly-thought features. The one last point which needs to be brought is that in my post there is information for, well, maximum realism possible for shield implementation in TES. There are only two things which aren't covered, and both are better suited for pure action games, not RPG.

1. Block direction. Kinda obvious in itself, but this feature is probably too detailed for TES melee combat. And it can feel pretty immersive without it, thank you very much.



Has there been any game to actually incorporated that feature effectively? I can't wrap my mind around a control solution short of a neural-synaptic link controller that just converts all the player's wishes to onscreen action. Anything else seems like it'd need a "Steel Battalion" type controller just for the shield itself.
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Stephanie Kemp
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:50 am

Given the small size of some bucklers and the fact that they can be strapped to one's arm, would it be impossible to wear a buckler and then dual wield? I imagine it would in terms of game mechanics, but an especially strong Nord would likely be able to manage it. That being said, I don't have much shield experience, so I wouldn't really know.
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Nana Samboy
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:04 am

Given the small size of some bucklers and the fact that they can be strapped to one's arm, would it be impossible to wear a buckler and then dual wield? I imagine it would in terms of game mechanics, but an especially strong Nord would likely be able to manage it. That being said, I don't have much shield experience, so I wouldn't really know.



Bucklers were often used with something like a Dirk, but thinking in how the game mechanically works, it's probably not possible. The buckler would essentially need to go into the Left or Right gauntlet slot, and then you wouldn't be able to activate it's use.
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Stace
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:05 am



1: They're Timing-oriented. You can't stonewall the shield until the enemy attacks, as in Oblivion.
2: Bashing is much more active. Holding the shield as a "Power attack" is seemingly how you initiate a bash.


KInd of off topic, but I am not sure why we wouldn't be able to "hide" behind a shield. It is more feasible then fire shouting. If there are balance issues with it, I would suggest that the stamina decreases after 2 seconds of holding the shield up. But to not allow that mechanic takes away from combat IMO.
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Guy Pearce
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:44 am

I really don't know that much about shields, and I plan to just pick it up on my combat oriented character, but I started to think.

I'll blame this on the Captain America comic laying next to the computer, but that shield would make an awesome easter egg.

Just sayin'...
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Philip Lyon
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:28 am

KInd of off topic, but I am not sure why we wouldn't be able to "hide" behind a shield. It is more feasible then fire shouting. If there are balance issues with it, I would suggest that the stamina decreases after 2 seconds of holding the shield up. But to not allow that mechanic takes away from combat IMO.


I think the reasoning behind that, is because if someone is "Hiding Behind" their shield, it's actually fairly easy to take a swipe at their legs, or another vulnerable spot. Since I don't think Skyrim is going to have directional blocking, the Timing-oriented style is supposed to replicate that natural vulnerability.


I really don't know that much about shields, and I plan to just pick it up on my combat oriented character, but I started to think.

I'll blame this on the Captain America comic laying next to the computer, but that shield would make an awesome easter egg.

Just sayin'...


It'll be a Day 1 mod I'm sure.
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Cameron Garrod
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:26 am

Has there been any game to actually incorporated that feature effectively? I can't wrap my mind around a control solution short of a neural-synaptic link controller that just converts all the player's wishes to onscreen action. Anything else seems like it'd need a "Steel Battalion" type controller just for the shield itself.

That's why I am saying that it is unnecessary complex, at least for TES game. For some pure action hardcoe melee slasher, detailed and realistic as much as it is possible, it is (maybe) viable somehow. But not in TES, which has another levels of complexity with spellcasting, for example.

I think the reasoning behind that, is because if someone is "Hiding Behind" their shield, it's actually fairly easy to take a swipe at their legs, or another vulnerable spot. Since I don't think Skyrim is going to have directional blocking, the Timing-oriented style is supposed to replicate that natural vulnerability.

And you are absolutely right. In reality, you are always somewhat hidden behind your shield, at least if it is medium or larger size (bucklers do not count). You just need to hold your shield arm bent at the elbow, that's all. But this sort of passive defense is unreliable, because, if your shield is of realistic melee-friendly size, you'd never be able to hide behind it completely. Either your head is open or (and/or, to be more precise) your legs. And if you are covering your head, you don't see much.

That is why timing-style of blocking, which we will have in Skyrim, is actually sounds like very adequate way of simulation. Of course, this fact does not makes your idea (plus my expanded version) redundant, because shields definitely should be different, and there is no better way to make them different.
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NO suckers In Here
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:47 am

I really don't know that much about shields, and I plan to just pick it up on my combat oriented character, but I started to think.

I'll blame this on the Captain America comic laying next to the computer, but that shield would make an awesome easter egg.

Just sayin'...



Needs a "Throw Shield" perk somewhere in the combat trees. :tongue:
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Laura Richards
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:00 am

What if thieves could use a "camouflage" shield? When you use it, your sneak is temporarily increased so long as you remain still.
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Nick Pryce
 
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:54 pm

I always make a bosmer adventurer/thief who uses a shield/longsword combo.

I'd love to have a Buckler/Shortword combo.

Here's hoping they have more variety in Skyrim, since the TES series seems to be leaning towards action and not roleplaying (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)
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Quick draw II
 
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