I'm working currently on the blacksmith for Pelagiad Expanded. I have broken armor set up in his basemant that his employees work on. Now, I've attached scripts so that when you steal one, whether it be during the day or at night, if you sell it back to the owner of the shop, he will say a line of dialogue and alert the guard. Should the owner attack you? Or should he just alert the guard?

I'm trying to be realistic about it. If you were to go into an armorer shop at night and were successful in stealing a smashed iron cuirass and then came back the next day to sell it to the blacksmith, chances are he would recognize it. The blacksmith inspects his armor to see what needs to be done, and then delegates his authority to his employees on what needs to be done to repair it. He would most likely recognize the same cuirass that had a gouge on the left side or three dents on the upper shoulder or a particular blood smear across the back. To implement this in a video game, I just have him recognize the object ID, followed by a reaction or two.

Let me hear your feedback to help make this better.

I like the idea . Will you have a guard stationed in the shop ? Maybe with repeat offenders he would get frustrated enough to drop disposition and even attack . The logic behind this is well considered and I would be interested in seeing what you come up with .

go with default NPC behavior.

if that is too dull, have him call the guard. that's something i just figured out how to do recently (with good help), so if you have problems doing this, drop a line and i'll show you how i did it.

I think different NPCs should have a variety of responses from running away to alerting the guard or even taking the law into their own hands. A feeble shopkeeper might be too scared to put up a resistance whereas a big, tavern-going blacksmith wouldn't hesitate to pick up an axe and sort the matter out himself.

I think the shopkeeper should attack directly when a theft occurs, unless there are guards stationed right there.
If the NPC has a bounty of zero (e.g. leaves, pays bounty, and comes back) then the shopkeeper should cease his aggression.

If you sell the item later, he probably should just call the guards.

>I think different NPCs should have a veriety of responses from running away

If he starts attacking, then wouldn't the normal AI allow him to flee?

I think both a lowered disposition and alerting the guard are good. Perhaps he can say "just give the armor back and I won't bring down the guard on you" + lowered disposition? It depends what the NPC's personality is supposed to be. Would the NPC rather avoid a huge fuss? Or would he demand the player be punished to the full extent of the law? Would he refuse to do continue doing business with the player character?

If the shop owner is supposed to have a background where he is proficient at combat, then I guess maybe he should attack. It depends how you want the atmosphere of the world to be like. Do citizens take matters into their own hands, or do they look to guards to enforce the law?

I actually voted for all three. I think on a first offense his disposition should be lowered. If his disposition is low enough, he will alert a guard. On the next attempt he should attack the player (since the guard obviously wasn't enough).

Depends on the armorer I'd think. Some migh want to act a little personal revenge and kill you yourself, some might just wanna alert the guard, some might be so afraid of you that they do neither but maybe just refuse to buy it back, but his disposition would be lowered either way. It really depends on the individual character.

it should depend on a lot of variables, but most of all i think his reaction should depend on player's fame. if a recently released thief steals from him, he should feel superior and attack you, if you begin to have some good reputation around vvardenfel (in the houses, or the guilds, or the temple or the legion, only examples) maybe he would prefer to call a guard, but if you are the nerevarine probably he would do nothing, or escape, i mean you killed dagoth ur, you won't have any problem killing him

Maybe the more real aproach would be to have both reactions, and chose acording to player level. if I were the smith. I{m not going to confront a level 20 adventurer on ebony over an iron plate. but if he is a level 2 with chitin probably I would kick his CENSORED! prhaps you can make it so if the PC level is 1-5 the smith attacks but if PC level is over 5 he resolves to call the guards (placing a bounty on you)

Realistically, a blacksmith would probably knock a thief out cold while the guard stood there and laughed. In fact, depending on the guard's disposition, he might even decide the butt-kicking is enough punishment, escort the player to the edge of town, and let him go. As I've mentioned on another thread, I think it's ridiculous that any arbitrary guard would know what else you've stolen and take it, so I personally wouldn't have the guard demand money or take all stolen items. From that point on, I would expect a disposition drop from any and all merchants in Pelagiad, but they might just make a joke about the player getting beaten up and deserving it.

One thing a blacksmith would *never* do is call the guards to take care of the problem. A smith would think of that as the cowardly act of someone who can't take care of his own business.

Having been a blacksmith in real life, I can tell you that anyone who stole from me would have found out what the hot iron feels like when I smacked it with the hammer! The only reason I would have called the guard would have been to drag away the idiot who tried, so that I didn't trip over him/her when I went back to work. I've yet to see a wimpy blacksmith.




KF

@CrazyGreggy The guard is stationed upstairs on the 2nd floor. There are no doors to block his path, just a right turn down stairs and another right turn on the 1st floor.


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/641/29861350.jpg is Llavam's dialogue so far.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1614/59539914.jpg is his AI.

@tumore Just because you're the nerevarine doesn't mean that Llavam will know right away. But then, his default dialogue will address Player as neravarine because of how the game is set up.


I agree with Elaura and KiteFlyer61, that a blacksmith isn't a wimp, and Llavam certainly isn't. Although he only has a glass dagger for a weapon and no spells.
There are only 13 armor types to which I am having him react, since he has inspected them meticulously. There is tons of more armor and weapons in the shop. But if you steal those successfully and then sell them back to him, he'll buy them like always. You can see in the picture what all the armor types area. There is no daedric in this shop, except a sword he has in his private room, but that's more for collection purposes since he likes daedric weapons.

Llavam is a level 62 NPC. He is very xenophobic and really only likes other dunmer. He tolerates and works and does business with Imperials, though. He's married and has one son (no name yet) who is his apprentice. I want to try and avoid Llavam initiating Combat with the Player because the Player will kill him and will destroy any opportunities for future quests, like getting a job at the blacksmith or doing business deals with his partners at other shops or handling love affairs with his son and the girl he is seeing. But if you steal someone's glass cuirass, that's gonna infuriate them. The guard in the blacksmith shop has his own unique ID, and thus he has a different face and hair from the vanilla Imperial Guard. Even though this guard is in the Imperial Legion, he personally works for Llavam, unless the Legion calls him for some duty, then he has to leave obviously. With that, the Guard has no problem with Llavam attacking the player if you steal something from him.


@Bloog The hand Master That is a good idea. If the Player is level 50 or over, then Llavam should not initiate Combat, no matter what the Player has stolen. Llavam should attack the Player if the Player is less than level 50 and has stolen either the Adamantium cuirass or Glass cuirass, or both, and tries to sell it to Llavam. If the Player is caught stealing, then the entire interior cell is alarmed and all the employees and the guard go after you. I've tested that many times, stealing during day hours. At night, all NPCs are disabled, except for Llavam and his family, since they are on the 2nd floor in bed. The broken armor that these dialogue commands are related to, is in the basemant. So it's super easy to steal at night, if you can break into the shop, since the lock level is 96 or something around that.

So let's go with If all armor types (except adamantium & glass) are taken, despite Player's level, and Player initiates dialogue with Llavam, Llavam will demand for it back or threaten to call the guard. So two options for this in Result Box. "Give back armor" and "Refuse". I don't want him to initiate Attack over a broken netch leather cuirass.
If it is the glass or adamantium, or both, then Llavam will demand for it back or threaten to attack you and call the guard as well. Same options as before. Except with this, if Player's level is 50 or above, then Llavam will demand for it back or threaten to just call the guard and he will not attack.


You might have noticed that Llavam is also in the Fighters Guild, which there is one in Pelagiad Expanded. Should Llavam have some mercy on a fellow guild member or no?

fist off, how to you accomplish this?

second point, no, it should result in expulsion. one of the rules of the fighter's guild is to not steal from other members.

I voted for the "alert the guards" vote.
I always thought that the NPCs and even the creatures were suicidal. I mean, they shouldn't sit and happily trade hit for hit if they are taking more damage versus thier health (as in, losing the fight) than the player. I remember seeing some creature mod that did something about not just fighting until they die but instead breaking off combat and fleeing unless they were blight-mad, and I thought that was a good idea.

ST

I agree that blight is probably the most likely justification for suicidal attacks. Personally, I think if an uber-player feels like blowing all the quests associated with the smith by stealing a few pieces of armor, then by all means let the blacksmith attack. In that case, I think the guard should join the fight and the end result should be the same as if the player attacked first. Ultimately, isn't it up to the player how they want to play it? A modder can only control the realism, not how the user roleplays it.

In any case, there ought to be a break in the fight during which the player can yield, just to give him/her a justifiable out if they change their mind about blowing the quest line.

This all the way. If I'd be a smith, which would also mean that I'm strong, personally I'd rather beat the crap out of the thief to teach him a lesson and take it back myself. I wouldn't really kill the thief, but I wouldn't really bother to call the guard either.

But an NPC can't just "beat you up". If an NPC starts Combat, then combat continues on until either you or the NPC is dead, right? Even when you leave and go back into the cell, the NPC is still in combat.

See my above post ^ If a guard can stop a fight to give you a choice of paying a fine, resisting arrest, or going to jail, then there should be a way to break into a fight with an NPC with a set of choices.

That's a great idea. If the Player doesn't kill Llavam in one hit or spell, the guard can rush down in time to intervene. I'll change the dialogue Llavam says later on.

@ RAKninja That is true that if a guild member attacks another guild member, then you'll be expelled. Hmm, I could make things simpler by not having Llavam be part of the guild. But the biography of Llavam is that he doesn't do active quests for the Pelagiad FG, but he does do excellent repairs and forging of weapons/armor for them when they need it. You'll also notice that his rank is very low. Really, being part of the guild for Llavam is just an extra way to earn more money. He has eight employees working in his 3 story blacksmith shop.

I need to go flesh out his biography a little more so that I can decide on what to do depending on who steals his armor.

you can script it so that is player health is less than 50% he stops combat and forces a greeting. you can have the script trigger a variable when it stops combat so that you can filter the dialog.

also, remember, the guards do not *stop* combat to arrest the player, they attempt to arrest the player *before* combat.

Here is Llavam's short, brief background

Llavam was the second blacksmith to arrive in Pelagiad. The first blacksmith shop is right across from his, ran by an Imperial. After the Imperial Provincial District was established on Vvardenfell in 3E 414, a group of Imperials and Dunmer built a small settlement, Pelagiad. Llavam was originally living in Oldrenthis (is that a Hlaalu territory? because I want him to be from a Hlaalu town). He was married and had a son and a couple years back, before he moved to Pelagiad. He took an interest in dwemer machinery and used it to his advantage in building his own blacksmith shop. There was already an Imperial blacksmith shop set up in town. Llavam purchased the building across the street from the armorer and built his own.
He has always had great disdain for the beast races and orcs. He never believed in women being blacksmiths, and believed they should stick to cleaning and other such womanly duties. Llavam is currently taking his son as his apprentice.


Getting a job quest circumstances:
Llavam will not hire females of all races. This svcks because I play a female character (my avatar).
He will not hire Argonians, Khajiits or Orcs.
He will only hire male Imperials, Nords, Redguards, Bretons and Elves. His most preferable race is Dark Elf, then High Elf, Nord, Redguard, Imperial and Breton.


Disposition
Towards male Orcs/Khajiits/Argonians, Llavam has 30 Disposition
Towards female Orcs/Khajiits/Argonians, Llavam has 25 Disposition
Towards all other male races, Llavam has 50 Disposition
Towards all other female races, Llavam has 45 Disposition




Note: The Guard in this blacksmith shop has his own unique ID, which allows a script to be attached to him without affecting vanilla guards.


Stealing

If DE/HE/WE/IM/RG/NO/BR - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 1 - 59
Llavam demands you give it back or be attacked - Give it back, -30 Disposition. Otherwise, -30 Dis & Combat initiates if you refuse to give it back. Then Guard rushes downstairs and intervenes, breaking up the fight, giving Player the option to give Llavam back the cuiass and then you go to jail, or to resist arrest.


If Argonian/Khajiit/Orc - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 1 - 59
Llavam demands you give it back or be attacked. Give it back, -30 Dis. Refuse, -30 Dis, combat initiates. Then Guard runs down and helps Llavam attack Player.


If DE/HE/WE/IM/RG/NO/BR - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 60+
Llavam demands you give it back or he will call the guard. Give it back, -30 Disposition. Refuse and Llavam calls the guard who is upstairs, -30 Dis. Guard gives Player option to surrender stolen cuirass and go to jail or resist arrest. Llavam will not attack.


If Argonian/Khajiit/Orc - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 60+
Llavam demands you give it back or he will call the guard. Give it back, -30 Disposition. Refuse, -30 Dis and Llavam calls the guard who will come down to give Player option to surrender and go to jail or resist arrest. Llavam will not attack.





If DE/HE/WE/IM/RG/NO/BR - if all other cuirasses - if level 1 - 59
Llavam demands you give it back or he will call the guard. Give it back, -30 Dis. Refuse, -30 Dis and Llavam calls the guard who will come down and give Player option to surrender and go to jail or resist arrest.


If Argonian/Khajiit/Orc - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 1 - 59
Llavam demands you give it back or be attacked. Give it back, -30 Dis. Refuse, -30 Dis, combat initiates. Then Guard runs down and helps Llavam attack Player.


If DE/HE/WE/IM/RG/NO/BR - if all other cuirasses - if level 60+
Llavam demands you give it back or he will call the guard. Give it back, -30 Dis. Refuse, -30 Dis, Guard runs downstairs and gives Player option to surrender and go to jail or resist arrest. Llavam will not attack.


If Argonian/Khajiit/Orc - if adamantium/glass cuirass - if level 60+
Llavam demands you give it back or he will call the guard. Give it back, -30 Disposition. Refuse, -30 Dis and Llavam calls the guard who will come down to give Player option to surrender and go to jail or resist arrest. Llavam will not attack.

What does everyone think of the way that is set up? For each race, Llavam will say a unique line of dialogue to Player.

This, but that would require a lot of extra work, going through everyone's personalities.
A guard should be doing his job - the shopkeeper is most likely not going to put his life & livelyhood on the line when a fully armored & armed guard is 10 feet away. The first reaction is for him to alert that guard, whether he chooses to stay behind, or run away.

The guard is upstairs so he has to come running down the stairs to aid Llavam, the shopkeeper. And that is true, he shouldn't put his life on the line. Question, are Players at level 50+ able to pretty much kick any NPC's butt? If so, then perhaps I should have Llavam not attack Player when the Player is level 30+.

once you get into lev 20/30 area there really is no stopping most players unless they get careless. This is a generalization cuz mages are much harder to play, and also doesn't count the expansions which were geared towards high lev characters. it is just to give you an understanding regarding the question you just asked.

ST