Akatosh being Alduin doesn't make any sense. A Dragonborn is blessed by Akatosh with the soul of a dragon. Akatosh created the Dragonborn to stop Alduin. Alduin calls himself the firstborn of Akatosh, and there's no way Akatosh would get slaughtered by a mortal, Dragonborn or not. Bethesda has made it VERY clear that they are not the same entity.

Who says it really was Akatosh? If anything, Shor is the most likely culprit, as everytime something big like this happened, it was Shor/Shezarr who interviened.

Also, you assume that the dragons are not assuming you're an idiot mortal with no sense of all the mythical importance and damage you could potentially cause. To the divines, the classification of father, mother, brother, nephew, niece, uncle, and etc. are almost not there, and that it's only mortals who use such terms. For them to use it is dumbing it down heavily for some chance for mortals trying to understand it. It's almost like the difference between watching a Science Channel on quantum physics, and actually being a person who applies it for a living.

Alduin and Akatosh being the Dragon God of Time does not mean they're of the same mind. As was mentioned above, aspect is the word you want. Aedra's power varies depending on the situation, and Skyrim has made it clear that Alduin still ends the kalpa. That means he manages to defeat everyone at full power.

You people really like to overthink this stuff. "You can't say the Shivering Isles storyline actually happened, because the CoC may have just gone insane"


Pfffft.

Yeah, because the MQ was Sheogorath prepping up the new Sheogorath, so that Sheogorath can stay and end the cycle, break the status-quo, and so on. It was a player's view of mantling, with a god directly interviening to lead a mortal to become him.

I still don't completely understand the whole Kalpa thing. Does it affect Daedric realms and Aetherius, as well as the rest of Oblivion?

According to a text (we don't know who wrote it, so it might not be canon) the Daedra create the next world. However, we do know another world will be recreated after Alduin eats it.

Most of the books? Certainly not. Some of them yeah, of course, but it's just foolish if they made most of the books unreliable. Then we'd never get any real information.

And why can't Paarthurnax and the claims of Alduin being Akatosh be right? Alduin is both Akatosh and firstborn of Akatosh. It's not like that's an alien concept.

Way to make huge assumptions. Yes, supposedly Akatosh blessed the Dragonborn, or so say the Septim line which also have said a lot of things that are in question when it comes to what a Dragonborn really is, as they have their own agenda designed to keep loyalty to the Empire. Saying Akatosh created the Dragonborn to stop Alduin is just foolish. Dragonborns have been around since Talos, he certainly wasn't there to stop Alduin. Dragons served him. And yeah, Akatosh wouldn't get slaughtered by a mortal, Dragonborn or not. But the manifestation of his Alduin aspect would and did.
As far as Bethesda making it "VERY clear" that they are not the same entity, I think they made it VERY clear that it was up for debate. There are books claiming Alduin is Akatosh and there are books claiming they are not. I subscribe to the theory that those books claiming they are not are merely a mortals' ignorant perception of what they see. "He Ent Akatosh" wasn't written by a clever man.

hmm... Could Alduin be dragon who mantled Akatosh in Dawn Era? I take that aspect can't act on it's own as Alduin seems to do, but mantling Akatosh in my mind grants more initiative to Alduin. However, what that does to Akatosh? As Akatosh seems to be still an active force working against Alduin. Then again there was Shor talking to me in-game, while there should be Talos as well somewhere as separate entity.

What i think is imporant question is this: Can you fail at maintaining mantling as you seemingly can fail at maintaining CHIM. Could it be that Alduin failed at 'walking the walk' and thus let Akatosh to act on it's independent self against Alduin.

I think these are good questions, but i'm also idiot. So...

Not everything requires mantling or involves it.

Like lusty Argonian maids, yeah. But can you make actual statement against my claim?

I think that in order to mantle something you have to become that something or at least close enough to make no difference. If Alduin and Akatosh are trully different in their views then mantling would in my opinion be impossible. More to the point, if Alduin wanted to mantle Akatosh and failed that would be no more significant then Ulfric trying to mantle Talos.

The 4th Aldudagga fight defines Alduin as an aspect, shed from Aka by "Heaven itself". It also draws Alduin as a more reckless deity: "“Who cares,” the World-Eater said". That covers initiative without mantling.

Okay, so i'm wrong.

Fishy87: In Vivec's Book of Hours mentioned than one has to maintain CHIM, it's not enough just to reach it. So my idea (which a now admit is wrong) was that same happened with Alduin, once similar to Akatosh. But for some reason not anymore.


What i'm thinking is that maybe same applies to mantling, you walk the walk to become one, but that doesn't mean that you won't fail at some point to walk the walk like you supposed... Main problem here is that CHIM and mantling aren't totally same, in mantling 'mantler' and 'mantled' will become as one. Buuuuut enough about it.

People


FORGET about anything Aldudagga says

The game says that Alduin sought to USURP the power that rightfully belonged to BORHAMU

It says that Alduin was DOOMED when he did this...


Bethesda has gone to great lengths to tell us Alduin is a 'first born' We need to accept it.

Also note that all through the battles with Alduin...there was no disruption in the flow of time. There was never a dragon break...

Skyrim confirms that Alduin still ends the kalpa. So no, we should not ignore the Aldudagga. And fighting the Time Dragon does not always cause a Dragonbreak: look at the end of Oblivion. They also are not noticable. No one but the Khajiit noticed the Dragonbreak.

Futhermore, all the Nordic legends must be wrong if they get all obsessive about getting Shor his Heart back. Alduin being/not being Akatosh is acceptable because we don't know much about him. Everything about Shor shows he is Lorkhan. "Shor's bones" also suggests that when they think of Shor, they imagine some dead guy.

I am not sure you can say there was no disruption in time when Martin became an avatar of Akatosh. The following MK post clearly implies a disruption. (MK wrote some oblivion lore)

http://www.imperial-library.info/category/tags/akatosh


"Also, Martin mantled Akatosh and dragon-[censored] Dagon silly, so his outlook on time in quite unlike our own. In fact, he said those words during the dragon-[censored] fight and you only remembered them later, a comforting memory that the Jills mended back into your timeline."

And how can you say nothing happened while fighting Alduin?

The 4th fight covers this. Supposedly, he was shod off from the Aka-tush by the will of heaven (Borhamu).

Of course, we should all keep in mind MK's recent elk-confirmation that Nordic myths are multifarious and oft-time contradictory, just like the Nords themselves.

You always seem to be in the minority of what to believe as far as lore goes. Ever think there's a reason for that? I mean, everyone here has their own interpretation of the lore, and no two people will necessarily agree on everything, but the difference is, you're the only one here I see that tries to force his interpretation on everyone else.

Sure, we could forget the Aldudagga. But then I have a question for you:

Where is the fun in that?

I quite agree on the first point. They've put allot of effort into the whole thing to make sure the main story is clear for everybody.

I don't agree on the second. It contradicts Shezarr and the Nine.

Personally I think it's shoddy story telling though. It looks just like an easy way to resolve the "Why does Akatosh want to eat Nirn after saving it". It would have been more interesting if Akatosh was Alduin.



Now you're arguing the person, not his arguments.

However, a new Khajiit myth has the Khajiit responding to what appears to be Alduin around the time of Wulfharth, thinking it is Alkosh.

The ancient Khajiit heard the great roar of Alkosh the Great Cat King of Time (ed: known as Akatosh in the empire, and Alduin in Skyrim) and raced to his Voice. In three days' time they crossed the whole of Tamriel, resting not even for the moonsugar, for such was the speed of Khajiiti then.

They joined with the pride of Alkosh and were his strongest warriors. Lorkhaj, (ed: Shor in the Nordic) however, chose to give his roar to the Ra'Wulfharth to spite the Khajiiti warriors, for he was jealous of their devotion to Alkosh.

Seeing the ferocity of the Khajiiti warriors, Ra'Wulfharth could not bring himself to put them to death. Using the roar that Lorkhaj had given him, he spoke to Masser and Secunda, to move to their fullness in the sky. The Khajiiti warriors became Senche, but Lorkhaj stripped from them all reason.

To me, stories like that suggest that we should look more into this.

But yes, I don't think we should insist on Akatosh being Alduin. Though Borhamu would be the better name to use.

Like SilentColossus said, different aspects. Alduin is like Jesus.

A is the son of B and is also B.
Jesus is the son of God and is also God.
Alduin is the son of Akatosh and is also Akatosh.

It may also be a result of TES Tulpa - when the Imperials heard about Alduin's story from the Nords, they probably just thought, "Oh these silly barbarians have gotten our Father Akatosh mixed up with this dreadful world-devouring Alduin!" and then everybody believed it and thought that Alduin was just an aspect of Akatosh. Something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca