I think its there, just not well defined. I can for instance see some cultures* seeing the ego as something to be transcended and making Zero-Sum** the ultimate goal. To achieve true unity with the ousiatic we must first cast of the construct of individual identity, or some such.

*I've attributed this view to orthodox Alessians in the past.
*or rather a like state of erasure from the mortal realm, I suppose.

Do it. Right now, any time someone goes on a tangent with the lore, they always end up walking into one of the Walking Ways, usually CHIM, until everybody is thinking the exact same thing continuously until their brains freeze.

Hm, pardon me right to Hell! I'm fixed by the Prophet of Landfall.

This is where I meant to say I was reminded of the Dwemer.

To be fair, anytime I try creating new plots that extend outwards on a Metaphysical scale (or that tinker with old ones), I wind up with an Enantiomorphic plot. The closest I came was a neat little idea of the one moment of Akatosh manifesting in Martin having funny effects on Time around the event.

lol - point not missed pls - yours = good point about Shor and co

my thought was simply about the role that 'the hero' me/us plays and in that we simply never seem to 'continue' into the next game once we have done the big thing

however there is a continuation of 'the hero' in this forum and others as well as in our thoughts - it just don't seem to happen in the new game/s

now it may be possible that with the new Shor stuff that will change in some way - as the roleplay / story that MK posted has a far more primitive and forward moving persistant feel to it that previous stuff which seemed more past-oriented

so perhaps CHIM(p) is all (of one thought) and the new view will have a different purpose ... however it is so very hard to translate 'poetic' urge and insight into an equally robust and meaningful 'system' as systematisation somehow implies the finite in most folk's thought (dwemer may be an exception)

So Alduin is the past, and Shor is the future? That's basically what I'm getting from this.

heh - I'm sort of a novice myself in many ways - I had not thought of it like that meself. Technically it seems Alduin was before Shore, but what I was seeing it in terms of was the mode of narration and it's impact both on the player's sense of his own place in things and on the gameplay. That's something that is built very deep in ES and getting stronger as it evolves.

hmmm I suppose it may be that I am looking at the different ways in which mer and nord see things. that mer distance themselves from events delving into their pasts like someone absentmindedly picking the lint out of their belly button, where Nords are right there in the instant of being and ever prressing that forward

The text posted in this thread is not at all opaque. If its meaning is not clear for you, its meaning has been discussed in simple language several times in this thread. While not every post is necessarily as clear as we would like, the general thrust of this discussion, and certainly every post by the original poster, has not been the least bit obscurantist.

You'd encounter the same thing if we were discussing RL philosophy. While we wouldn't be talking in metaphor, we'd be referring to concepts and terminology that you simply just have to educate yourself about before being able to participate in. Start with the historical stuff. Aside from a few people here who like making EVERYTHING metaphorical or metaphysical, things are a lot clearer.

It comes with the territory of the Lore Forum. If you want to read MK's stuff you need to work your way up to draw some meaning. Hell, I've been trying to become a lore buff for years and I still feel like I'm reading cantonese sometimes.

You know something Fjord?

When you consider the multitudes of people who play the games, and how much more their experience can be enriched by the lore. I think it is truly sad the way lore is understood by only a minutiae of people.

Why does the material have to be manipulated to such a degree of opacity...

I can't help but agree, and I sometimes fear that that's a much smaller group than the group that says they understand it.

There are things you need reading to get. If you don't remember that "Shor" is Skyrim's Lorkhan, this piece is obviously incoherent to you. But there's really very little foundation that's actually needed to get any of this. All you need for a clear understanding is clear thinking. The so-called 'metaphors' are mostly sophistry and sleight-of-hand.

EDIT: Oh, you decided to hide your flaming in an edit this time. Find me something you think is opaque in the original post of this thread and I will elucidate it.

I really have no answer to why much of the obscure lore is so... well obscure. A much smarter poster who I cannot seem to remember traced its source back to Daggerfall and its multiple endings. The way to retcon all these endings was to make the Elder Scrolls world one where time can bend, break, and be a lot of different things. Then came MK and other lore writers who have a knack for mind-knotting fantasy writing. I love the Elder Scrolls Lore. I understand about half of it.

The unfortunate truth is that Elder Scrolls lore is confusing and frustratingly cryptic, but you can still enjoy the games without understanding every facet of information. In the cases of the games, you have the main story which is easily digestable: The Oblivion barriers have weakened, Martin destroyed the Amulet of Kings to eternally renew them. And then there's the lore behind it, which most do not understand: There is a Dagonite and/or Ayleid conspiracy to destroy the stones of each Tower in Tamriel (Lorkhan's heart in Red Mountain, the Amulet of Kings for White-gold) in order to restore Mundus to a state of dawn-eraness. Not everybody needs to understand the lore, and few do. But for those who are passionate about really understanding the metaphysics, methods of apotheosis, divine conspiracies, dragon breaks, and fractured history of it all everything is available. The Imperial Library not only has every ingame book and dev-written text, but also shelves of debates and theories in the Storyboard. The Lore is there for those who are truly passionate about embracing the Elder Scrolls mythos, obfuscating baggage and all.

I am not hiding anything Mr Quimper and I am not flaming. The material is just frustrating. I also appreciate if you are able to help


So Kyne the is god of the sky, the Nordic equivalent of the Cyrodillic Kynareth. She has used the voice to draw some warring Nordic faction back to High Hrothgar. Dead members of this faction riding back with survivors of the battle seems off to me but ok.

Further down the line we get...

What on earth is this?

Shor is angry and throwing things around.... But isn't Shor/Lorkhan dead?

Lets continue...

Why are mortal Nords mixing and mingling with Mara, Dibella, Kyne?...

again..what is this?

So you haven't even begun to fathom this! I wonder to what extent you have even tried, because your issues with it are extremely superficial.

"Shor son of Shor" is a Dawn myth. You can tell because the Aedra don't do much of anything at any other time. Historical context helps as well, because fragments of this were posted in a thread about the dawn a year or two ago. You can also tell because it takes the form of the events of the Dawn, with the crucial distinction that should be confusing at first but only at first: in this story, the Eight Aedra are clans, within Shor's clan there is a character who shares their name with the Nordic name for each of the Aedra.



There are no characters in this piece that I can find identified as "mortal Nords" - if by mortal you mean like the ones you find in the game. Nords, yes, but not mortal ones - ones with "scaled manes." They are, of course, still mortal in the sense that they can die; it is incredibly incoherent to ask how "mortals" could mingle with "gods" when you know that one of those gods has died.

If you cannot find an answer when you ask yourself why Michael Kirkbride would have called these characters "Nords," though, that's no one else's fault.


As to that last quote, that is the act of covenant. The Lorkhanic figure is made to be at odds with the other Aedra (in this case, the other Aedric clans) and loses his heart. This should be apparent.

I'm sorry Mr Quimper but comments like this...



and



make me wonder if your genuinely trying to be helpful or merely stroking your ego

If that's all you're going to get out of this then I must apologize, because I am not going to be spending any more of my time trying to help you.

Like I clearly indicated in my initial remarks...

Help is appreciated, but you do not need to put somebody down to help them.

You don't seem to be appreciating help offered to you because as far as i can tell Mr. Quimper is being very helpful.

Could those answers be more clear? Yes they could... but i don't think many people will put the time&effort into it because that would be rather huge task. You really can't expect anyone to tell you how to disassemble car into pieces and put it back together over some internet forum. But there are hundred pages long manuals for it and by which's aid you can do that. That is why there is Imperial Library for TES lore.

My advice: Visit Imperial Library and start study what Mr. Quimper told you. That is pretty much the only way.

EDIT: Ofcourse lurking in here is also good idea.

This is about as clear as myth gets. Read the http://imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth, read http://imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire. Everything should make sense if you have a basic knowledge of TES religion, and that which does not either doesn't matter (ignore it) or is the point (try to figure it out using what you know, gain knowledge).

I'm going to take the opportunity to subscribe to this notion as well. I feel that the more people would able to enjoy lore, the better. As I have mentioned before, there seems to be this wrong-headed notion that a lot of the writing is deliberately designed to repel the large majority of readers. I don't understand why anyone would want that, least of all the authors.


Really, all of it can be explained in simple words and simple concepts. Anyone who fails to do so is partaking in the "sophistry and sleight-of-hand" Quimper has mentioned. Quimper's explanations of the text are all spot-on, as far as I am concerned. Please continue asking for clarification if needed. I enjoy reading a readable discussion.

'S not that opaque to me. Maybe it's because I read a lot of Shakespeare, so any turn of phrase is instantly translated in my mind. As for the lore content, it's just the Monomyth given a Nordic spin (which means add awful fighting, really).

I really shouldn't do this, but...

...my intent was not to obfuscate, but to expand a very old idea confined within the outlook of a particular (and, at this point, a kinda sorta exciting and pertinent) culture.

I understand the concern you display here vilnii and Fjord's but I like to think that even where folks are not set to unravel the whole skein they still enjoy the feel of something real that comes through when you actually take time to read and submerge themselves in the in-game books - I certainly do it that way. There is stuff that I see clear as a bell first off and other stuff that sort of sneaks up and hits me when I am not looking - that's fine by me. The 'mathematical' side of things is not always so interesting to me but still adds a certain feel that I enjoy.

edit
And MK ... I feel that's the way it should be or you lose all texture and end up with stuff that becomes mundane and goes nowhere. There is plenty of stuff in the Lore that is simple - and I enjoy that too as it is all well done and to the point. Folks who prefer the obvious actually find there is more of that kind of thing than they need so no one loses out ...

In Nordic mythology there is plenty of simple stuff but a lot of it is far deeper than many modern folks give credit for, not least the insistance on the balance between fire and ice. Some scientists say that Magma began the production of carbon dioxide = plants = oxygen = atmosphere and the life cycle and Ice created the momentum to stimulate the evolution of bacteria into more complex forms. The magma lifts up the lands and the ice wears them down. These two forces are at the start and the heart of what we are and are still at work around and within us. We can see ourselves as simple people but what we are is also incredibly complex whether or not we understand it all. So party on dude