"I dream that I am alive."

Well, there's a prophesied denouement in the fighting, when the Cycle of cycles ends. That's what I'm saying Ysgramor, the death-spiral of duality, represents. Though yes, the fighting will continue, because he's one tier of the conflict. (And there are others, still, unless V is the end, which nothing indicates that's the case.) Free-conscious, always reaching, Amaranth; whatever it's called, there are no more horizons, then. The world believes there are now, because the gods have fooled them.

When it does, space-time will have been reinstated of necessity (or, as a result, which is the same thing).

And where does the boundless get us?
"Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things."
Which, being everything, might as well be nothing.
"Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing."
And so, to avoid being nothing.
"C0DA Digitals have confirmed that a subject in sensory deprivation begins to hallucinate after only twenty minutes."
And so the circle starts again. It can't stop by going back to the beginning - if they want it to stop they'll have to solidify the limits once and for all, removing them defeats the whole purpose.

The essence of every picture is its frame. Only a fool would want to do away with horizons - this is why the Aedra are the true loving parents.

I don't know much about the past few posts, but what's going on is pretty simple. The world's trapped in a miserable cyclic structure of creation and destruction. The end to the kalpas will come, and the world will break free of the mess. All everyone needs to do is understand the interconnected nature of the world and their place in it, retain their individuality, and know love for one another.

Dagoth Ur?

That last sentence sounds like another way of saying "when pigs fly."


I'm curious about this talk of cycles and transcendence. Is the status quo really that bad? I mean, assuming you're not some dirt farmer, and especially if you've secured one of the many paths to immortality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXmz605GAnc

I disagree. I think maintaining a single kalpa for longer than it should be kept may be the key.

My reasoning is bound to my reasoning of Alduin's motivations. I... hm. Have a fever. Lemme try and keep going. Alduin eats the kalpa to keep it from getting further than a certain point in cultural development. If this eternal recurrence is halted and things allowed to go past where they were, people will become more advanced and succeed where the Dwemer failed.

That is so bafflingly incomplete an explanation of my thought processes that it's embarassing. But like I said, I'm under the weather. Beg pardon, but I'll try and be more complete when I'm well.

Right, which is why the start of the hero's journey begins in ignorance. The fool is precisely the one to break convention, and open the door to Paradise.

He talks his own way, but Quimper knows the Cycle of cycles is closing. And it's no wonder, considering the parallels. No more horizons, indeed.

Perhaps your inability to express yourself is indicative of something. The texts just don't support anything of that nature. Believe me, the Dwemer did not fail because they were not technologically advanced enough.

There's a message in this, and your corruption of it is tragic.

:rolleyes:



Better one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcDMJvO6aHU&NR

Never taken much stock in your emoticons.

I already sorta asked this once without an answer, when I asked what was wrong with the status quo. On the opposite side, where does it say that this will equal paradise?

The only place paradise is mentioned is in relation to Mankar Camoran, who was obviously mistaken in his ways. Nowhere do I see, in the obscure texts or outside them, why this stuff is preferable. The Loveletter and the writings of Vivec explain what CHIM is and how it works, but they never say why one should prefer it to what might be considered lesser forms of apotheosis.

I asked somewhere else and never got an answer as to if there was only one ideal ascension in the TES world. It seems odd that with its plethora of deities and worldviews that there would only be one true end goal, with just various ways of trying to reach it. Maybe Vivec only found one of many tricks to beating the cycle.

Wrong? I don't know, why is war wrong? It's old, I guess. It's not good enough. Mankind's locked in a state of war, with itself. The "fighting again" part is a big bummer. I thought you got your answer, in Quimper's post. There's a resolution to hero stories, and TES is another hero story. It follows there is a resolution, even if it's vague and open to interpretation.

Paradise/Heaven is the end of the fighting, that's all. "After the Kalpa" is all I was saying.

That's the basis of the Monomyth; the journey's, only goal begins, when the Hero to discovers who he is. When he's made sense of who he is, he's made sense of the world, and the world is pacified. He wills the boon of understanding to others, and they to others.

Feeling better. Okay, my idea of the Dwemer "failing" relates to them succeeding in becoming the skin of Numidium, but then having no control over the god they became any more than my skin controls what I do. It has nothing to do with technological advancement, but a sort of social understanding. I'd probably be right in assuming the message you're talking about is the whole ascending through love bit, and since the Dwemer's attmept at godhood lacked that completely it was doomed to failure? If the kalpa lasts beyond its appointed time, they reach the fifth era where more people, seemingly, understand that.

My idea of Alduin's motivations comes from how, in the Aldudugga, he implies he is trying to stop something-or-other from happening. While it is out on a far limb, I think he is eating the world because, if mortals can become gods in the way the Dwemer likely wanted to without using a sort of tech-cheat that just backfires anyways, then the gods become obsolete and Shor wins. You are right that there is no textual support that he is specifically trying to stop that from occurring, but there is no real indication of what he is trying to stop and if something else is told in Skyrim then I'll amend my view.

So far I'm not at all convinced about the idea that the hero will achieve anything other than to be himself

Ain't that the point? To be yourself even though there's no such thing as you?

and will to all the love requisite chim; to pass this understanding to his children. You're missing that. To simply be himself is to sit at the peak of the mountain but not come down. The Hero is the only one who can come back from the top and share what he gained from that journey. We follow the same, basic rubric throughout the day. Going to college, coming back home, practicing what's been learned... pretty basic stuff. Only, instead of local, the hero of this myth is universal.

It seems like you're extrapolating from chim what isn't presented. Or if it is presented I don't see it. Everything presents it as a personal ordeal, and while it is seen as giving birth to love in that the achiever realizes that the world is essentially his 'brain-child' (a word that seems almost too appropriate) and thus they are a parent and so naturally inclined to love their children, which is in this case the world, I don't see where the children are then given to love one another or even their parent in return. That is, I don't see where it is anything more than a personal ordeal. Talos and Vivec don't seem too intent on helping the commoner achieve apotheosis.

Surely I realized apotheosis isn't the objective of the journey. Beyond apotheosis is the Return. The hero discovered something about himself, on the mountain, which puts the world in its place, his place.

He will save the world, now, because he understands his place, and the place of all others in his life. Now, I can't be sure how you'll interpret the previous sentence, but that's not in my power. I've said this already. I'm not confused by chim. Anyhow, the hero's reached the loft of heaven, now he opens that gate. That's the Return and the Gift. The hero is cosmos and high as heaven he shares this cosmos with others. At no point does the hero stop at the peak of the mountain. If he does, he's lost vision and love. He's the Sharmat. He'll be the successful hero's obstacle.

So, perpetual introspection is insanity, and that's a phase of the journey, only. The ordeal begins within, yes. The ordeal emanates from without the hero, as well. Chim is a personal journey, but it's reciprocated in the external world. The love which holds the hero together, within, holds the world together without, because he knows there is no divide in the two. That's his Gift, to the world, and so the notion Talos and V'vek never shared chim is absurd; they are the world.

I asked why chim is preferable, you said something about stopping the wars. They might be the world, but if that's the case they haven't done much in the way of emancipation or love. What have they reciprocated into the external world. What part of their ordeal has emanated out. If they're holding the world together then they're not helping to destroy the horizons, and they still haven't stopped any wars.

I don't think you're confused by chim, I just don't think you're talking about it.

'Klast is obviously a Shezarrite. And that's perfectly okay.

We haven't seen a fleshed-out alternative to CHIM to support something more preferable, but I promised a long while back to provide one. We'll see.

I will say that, CHIM or not, there is no evidence that either Talos nor Vehk achieved Amaranth. If they did, Tamriel would be in their rearview mirror. The Amaranth deserves its own topic, really. Its core concept is the most divisive among the mystics, in my opinion.

Thanks, that answers a question that I've been asking for a while.

Don't get me wrong. I've been thinking of an alternative worldview of ascension (a gross generalization for now, but you know what I mean) that was decidedly non-Lorkhanite. It doesn't necessarily mean it will be any more preferable to CHIM. Any successful outcome in myth-building would and should only engender more argument. Passionate argument at that. Otherwise: fail.

It seems I'm using my terms incorrectly. The Amaranth is what I was actually curious as an alternative to, since CHIM (along with everything else) seems to be one of the ways of reaching that.

However, it seems I'm cluttering up two topics with the same question now, neither of which is on-topic.

Yeah, dude, you totally are derailing the obvious coolness of Shor son of Shor.

Which is to say, start another topic, because you're asking some good question. I'll come and play.

And the awful fighting began again.