No they should not.
Not all three classes need to be able to do the exact same things.
There needs to be a difference. Things warriors can do that thieves cannot. Things that mages can do that the others cant.
Otherwise, what is the point?

I think there are some good points being made here especially since I find starting spells a weakness of my own also, if its there I have a tendency to use it, I wont mind it at the beginning if all things are deletable, A personal pet peeve I have with many games, I dont like having keys on my person that I used once in a quest, but will never need again, or any quest related item for that matter, and spells on my fighter just irritate me to no end, as when I play a fighter guy he has no majic, and in my mind despises every1 else who does, so it does affect my ability to role play as I desire, you may not be affected by this, well good for you, but for me it is as bad as a case of poison ivy, gets under my skin something awful, lol call it weakness, or lack of will power, but in the end it needs to be able to be deleted if I choose, same goes for quest items, If i dont want them In my inventory anymore, let me remove them, ask me 2x if I am sure , whatever it takes to remove excess stuff from my inventory, as I like a nice clean excess free inventory, I hope that Bethesda reads this post as this is probably one of the worst features of their games for me.

Well you probably won't have to worry about that. Fallout 3 used a key chain, just like a mod someone made for Oblivion, where all the keys you get in the game were stored. So I strongly suspect that you won't see any keys in the game unless you decide to open the key chain.

As the game has no more classes to speak of it will have to give you a basic spell from each of the schools of magic, as well as a lockpick and a basic weapon. They can't just give you a rusty sword as it gimps all mage and thief classes fromthe start.

Why does an auto mechanic know how to apply a bandage on his cut finger? That's clearly a skill only a doctor should know how to do. That comparison is no different than in a world like Tamriel where magic is prevalent. The ability to cast a simple spell is not restricted to only members of the Mage's Guild, the knowledge is fairly commonplace. Even a beggar on the street might have some knowledge on how to cast a basic healing spell.

This thread has a lot of good points, the only thing I think needs to change, is less reliance on Alchemy. With cooking and all the meat, perhaps a warrior-type player's alternative to Magic or alchemy, is just having themselves a slab of mutton and a tankard of mead.

Why cant a warrior-type player be able to use a basic healing spell or make a simple restorative potion? If you dont like them then dont use them.



Or you can buy health pots and scrolls with all that extra loot you can carry because of your high strength. Eating to heal wounds and injuries never makes sense to me , besides food restores Stamina(Im assuming theres still Stamina).

I understand the view of "I want to roleplay a non-magic user", but there are some things that are just unavoidable. I could see the argument being made in past Elder Scrolls games, as they throw you into the game with no background. The most you know is that you're in jail.

Skyrim marks the first time where they've told you about your background a little bit. You are Dovahkiin and whether you like it or not, you're going to learn how to Shout. If you're born with the soul of a dragon, or however Dragonborn works, it's not much of a stretch to assume you also have access to basic Magic.



However, I do see the other argument...but don't agree with a "spell deletion" system. Spells are different from weapons, armor, and other such items in that they function more as a skill and add no encumbrance. The only good reason I can think of to allow players to delete spells is if they function similarly to Oblivion in that you have "Finger of the Mountain", "Lightning Bolt", and whatever other name for a variable-damage Lightning attack you want.

The only reasons I've seen given against starting people off with a skill is that they feel as if they must use it. Well, that's your decision. "I have no potions left, and I feel as if my hand is forced."? You are the only one forcing yourself to not use it. If you choose to abandon your roleplaying for convenience, you're no longer roleplaying.


Just play how you want, regardless of what spells you start off with.

While everyone has the capacity to learn magic, not everyone knows magic. Just like not everyone is trained to stab people or trained to pick locks. I suspect large segments of the population don't know how to cast a single spell. They could learn if they had the time, money, and inclination to train in it but they haven't. Whether or not you'd be a bad warrior for spending time learning it is a different question. In the game view where you drop a trivial amount of money and poof you know the spell sure it is not practical to avoid learning magic. But in the world that X GP is a lot of money to a lot of people, and it isn't just poof you know it. It is a time consuming process to learn the basics just so you can cast that heal spell. It isn't like there is a vast public education system in the world., that makes sure every peasant has a chance.

I really agree with you. Everyone in Tamriel knowing a basic first aid and fireball isn't even interesting, and it clearly doesn't fit with in game literature. The business of first aid is the path that should be taken by the game, and in my opinion, the medical skill needs to return to the series.

I wasn't saying they should make the spell unaccessible for players during the "tutorial" part of the game, what i mean is to make it so that i'm not obligated to have that spell in my spell-book. Similar to how you would pick a bow or sword and you could just sell them later because you were not going to use them.. make a tome or a scroll that would grant you the option of just selling it. The spell delete option would actually just solve this situation all together.

The ability to remove spells would be nice. I hated having a stupid amount of spells in Oblivion as when I leveled up I usually had little reason to use past spells.
It would also fix the problem though.

Perhaps you have to learn how to use magic rather than the ability being innate. However seeming some classes already know some magic this idea is kind of redundant.

Just give us the ability to delete spells and all will be fine.

Well actually such perk can be done as starting trait thats we can chose by cost in some number of points like it was in Daggerfall just need improve old system
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:ClassMaker
There can be requirements like enough Endurance and Strength attributes for such perk, regeneration only to certain limit of Health, regeneration only on wait, regeneration outside of combat only, regeneration in certain environment and time (in water, in dungeons, in wilderness, in darkness, in light, in public or holly places) as well there can be negative traits thats limit such bonuses make them negative penalties or add negative side effects.

As well adding such starting traits can remove restoration of Health and Magicka on fast travel and waiting so only gifted or specially trained individuals can restore their parameters in such way, otherwise need have proper sleep to restore resources of body and mind, I think its logically does not?
We don't have Birthsigns and there really need similar traits to enhance individuality of characters, besides Devs have experience of adding such traits, there is nothing hard in such features and if need protect newcomers from wrong decision such features can work in hardcoe mod only.

If you don't mind me saying, this is a poor argument.

As an extreme example to convey the point. What if they made you start the game with a very strong spell that could isnta-kill anything and the ability to use it?
And then somebody was arguing that it should be removed. Your argument could be applied here against this person.

The OP is not talking about prohibiting anything at all, he is talking about doing away with everyone having the innate ability to restore themselves with magic.


A warrior type that wants to use a spell like this should invest in restoration via training it and attain the spell themselves. This is what the game is all about, you're supposed to work for it. Baring in mind I play warrior types mostly.

The difference between our arguments is that I am not talking in terms of extremes and you give an extreme "what if" example, which contradicts common sense. Nobody is going to give you an insta-kill spell. Not even the Mighty Magic mod in Oblivion does that. I don't even want to discuss extreme what ifs. We are talking about a low level healing spell here, which every peasant can cast. That is speaking about poor arguments.

The concept of the main character in Morrowind and Oblivion suggested that the character could excel in all the areas. That is why the PC had basic experience in everything, including swordplay, magic, thievery, etc. Then, you proceed the way you wanted. This is unlike other games, where you had pure fighters, mages, etc. So, you either give fighters basic restoration spells, or strip them of magicka, which flows in their veins. Because any reasonable fighting school will teach a fighter a basic healing spell, knowing that he can cast it. Not everyone is stupid. Prohibiting a fighter (of all classes) to heal with a spell, which they can cast, is against common sense, to my opinion. I do not like it. However, I do not know the concept of character creation in Skyrim. It may be that the OP will get his no-healing, no-magic type of a fighter. It will be against to what I understand the TES universe is, but I will have to agree with that.

It is not stated ANYWHERE that a 100% pure warrior can not use magic. The definition of a Warrior class does not negate the possibility of magic usage. From a fantasy aspect, Warriors commonly use healing types of magic if the setting permits it.


If you don't want the heal spell, then don't use it. Simple as that. Self control. Learn it.

Come on guys, we are not discussing if warriors should or should not be able to cast magic, this is a matter of player preference , anyone is free to decide if he wants to cast spells or not, it doesn't have any gameplay impact. We are just asking for a option to remove does spells so that we don't feel like they are accessible to us at any time.

On another topic: Are we really sure that all beings in TES are suppose to be able to cast spells? I'm just really wondering because it would be a interesting aspect to my experience in the game. I don't know if the fact that everyone casted spells in Oblivion was gameplay intended or was not done correctly :ermm:

I can see only one reasonable way to do it. As another person noticed, a mage (or anyone for that matter) may need a spell book to cast spells. He can cast them in general, but he needs this magic tool, just like a fighter needs a sword. And the spell book is removed, when a mage put into a prison to eliminate accidents. That way, you will not be able to cast anything until you find your book or buy a new empty one and start collecting your spells. Would that be OK?

No, because mages do not need a spell book to cast spells.
What is lore friendly is that the starter area could be a place where spells do not work, due to a spell dampening enchantment.

Anyone in TES can cast a few basic spells. It would be utterly silly if they couldnt. So people have this internal battery of magical power and go through their whole lives never using it?
Thats like a healthy man going around in a wheelchair, never using his legs.
Sure, there can be rare individuals with absolutely no knowledge of any spell, for instance imagine an orc with an atronarch birthsign and a hatred for magic. But those will be rare exceptions. Any farmhand will learn a basic healing spell or basic fire spell. If these are just tools to be used then they can learn em from their family/ employer.
Not everyone has the money or time to become really good at spellcasting though.
For that you need the mages guild.

All that is needed is the ability to delete spells from your spell list.
Nothing more.

It was frequently said by members of the Mages Guild in MW that everyone could learn a few spells and being able to do so has been a feature of TES II-IV. No problem with that. What I object to is having to start with spells known even if I have no skill in magic. That was added by TES IV.

Well, the fact is in general the Mage Guild accepts anyone without a criminal record. There might be some stat requirement in Morrowind, but other than that it isn't hard to get started in learning spellcraft. Getting to the University is the hard part, but otherwise magic is not exclusive to anyone the same way there is no law demanding that mages can't use broadswords or wear orcish armor.

That's really where the disagreements are, really; some people here are old fashioned and believe roleplay demands that they obey D&D rules. Warriors must have zero spells and Mages must somehow be incapable of even putting on heavy armour.
This is not how TES rolls. In the TES world, Mages can wear Armour and wield Broadswords, they would just svck horribly at it. The same way warriors can cast healing spells but they wouldn't be able to do much with them.

What it boils down to is this: Elderscrolls is not Dungeons and Dragons. The entire universe is different. Roleplay is one thing, roleplay a completely different game is another.

How didn't you have skills in magic? You always start with skills in all schools >=5. I thought that this was clear that a player actually starts the game knowing everything a little (minor skills) or more (major skills). So, you know magic in all vanilla TES games.

I would rather have it. I don't want to worry about it. A backup to keep me alive is always welcome.

Yup, I said good amount of times that you need to learn self-control if you want to play an "M" rated game; not doing so renders you in the same regard of an 8-year-old.

I agree with the OP. I don't want to have anything 'forced' upon my character. If they want us to have a couple of cantrips at the start either let us choose or, better still, wait until we find a Mage Guild and can learn some.