Fable II.
Lots of other things were crap in Fable II compared to Fable I but moving forward in time to introduce guns didn't exactly help.

I thought guns fit well in Fable II. Sure Fable II wasn't as nearly as good as Fable I, but moving forward to the pioneer age was a good advancement.

I don't think Fable is a good game to discuss about what items are good for RPGs and what aren't.

How about Darklands? It has guns and is set in the Holy Roman Empire during the 15th century. It's an alternate reality where all the myths are real and it's possible to fight against demons, Satan-worshippers and some mythical creatures as well as brigands, thugs, guards, etc.
Guns are integrated very well and don't make other items like bows, swords and plate armour look out of place.
Historically, handguns coexisted with plate armour for over 3 centuries.

I don't know how it looks in Fable II but guns should basically allow to fire 1 powerful shot before the enemy enters melee range, without possibility of using hit and run tactics like with bows due to very long reloading times.

Darklands sound interesting, what system is it on? (PS1, PC, PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, Ninendo 8-bit/16-bit/32-bit/62-bit, Gamecube, Gamecast, Gameboy/Advanced, PSP)

Personally I don't really see it as "realism". The entire thing isn't about how real the factions are and how they are humans. It's a pretty wacky adventure, involving a roman army knock-off faction in football uniforms and a leader who doesn't seem to believe his own doctrine, a pre-war business tycoon with a plan 200 years in the making, robot armies. That you seem to focus solely on the so called "mundane" is missing the entire aspect of the story. Like replacing the masters army with some brainwashing human megalomaniac.


It has to fit the setting. A semi-industrious setting would work.

Wow you are a rare person. I don't think I ever seen some one say they don't like FO2 or New Vegas but like BoS. I don't hate FO1 its the best one. What I get from you is that there should be no real canon. It should be an anything goes thing "spiritual successors." As long as its based in a nuclear wasteland its fallout, is that it? FO2 is awesome and so is FO New Vegas, FO3 well its ok. FO2 and New Vegas are just as Fallout as FO1. They expand the story and have great lore.

It's for PC
http://www.mobygames.com/game/darklands

It was made by Microprose in 1992.


The Roman army knock-off faction isn't anything that couldn't happen in RL. They are basically in the same category as Khans in Fallout 1. The whole robot army thing felt a bit too gratuitous to me. Basically a free power trip for the player.

One thing that I loved about the Master is how creepy he was. The whole Cathedral was a fantastic nightmare with creepy cultists, biological goo all over the walls, mad scientists, insane psykers and super mutants. The corridor of revulsion and then the Master...
Join... DIE! Join... DIE! Join... DIE!
To be honest, I recommend taking a trip through the Cathedral to anyone who thinks that the Master isn't evil.

I really miss having something as fantastic and disturbing as a main enemy.


Any setting that has capacity to produce stuff like plate armour and has alchemy would be technically capable of producing handguns.


I never said that I liked BoS. Also, I never said that there should be no real canon.
There are things that are important like not throwing in modern RL weapons, keeping the equipment types from Fallout 1, avoiding theme park-style design, creating a believable working world like in Fallout 1 with working economy, food/water sources, etc. not contradicting stuff that was already stated in Fallout 1, no stuff like talking animals, etc.
Which doesn't mean that when one goes to other parts of the Wasteland, there have to be Super Mutants and BoS and that there can't be other fantastic and horrible and exciting things that weren't known in Fallout 1.

When I talked about "spiritual successors", I talked about games set in completely different settings.

Milard...Fallout 2 rocked. I loved the

Fallout 2 didn't ruin canon...it helped the series 'evolve'. Fallout 3... That is like F.E.V. for the series. Mutates it in strange ways. If you're barking about canon being screwed up and it being illogical, that's what you should be killing.

How is FO2 and New Vegas like a "theme park" FO2 has a working economy and so does New Vegas. Some say New Reno was over the top but its real, places like that will always be around. As for real world weapons FO1 has the Desert Eagle. I don't mind real world weapons as long as they were around during or before the 1950s or even being designed in the 1950s but not made till the 1960s. Weapons in New Vegas are just modeled on real world weapons which again I don't mind. Weapons in Fallout did not go from 1950s type weapons to lazer weapons over night. Just because its an alternate time line does not mean they would not have weapons that look like ours.

In a way I agree with you about "and that there can't be other fantastic and horrible and exciting things that weren't known in Fallout 1." People with psyker powers are ok but not a whole army of magic elves.

Traqer town, drugs town (what do the people in Den eat? Especially the junkies?), mining town, farm town, Gangster town with tommy guns, martial arts town, Vault full of talking animals... Fallout 1 had much more solid design - partially thanks to not allowing stuff like the Racoons.
As for New Reno...
There's a basic problem - how did it survive as a "vice" town before NCR got estabilished?


Desert Eagle went into Fallout only because it was Chris Taylor's favourite gun and a pop culture reference. Fallout had its own distinct guns from between the end of WWII and the energy weapon times. RL weapons from 50s and before 50s don't make sense unless they are unique like Gizmo's Mauser pistol (which is probably a reference to Mad Max 1). They would be really ancient weapons before the war - about 127 years old. A Desert Eagle from 80s is already ancient and described as such.
Adding RL old guns is pointless for one reason - to the Fallout's world, the guns like 10mm Pistol, 10mm SMG, 5mm Assault Rifle and others are the thing of the past that still lingers on - they are Colts 1911, FN Fals, etc. of that world. They were replaced by energy weapons before the war.

A lot of modern RL weapons in Fallout 2 were basically weapons from 80s that didn't make it into production that somehow popped up as experimental weapons before the great war, despite that the Great War was almost 100 years after they were invented in RL, probably because they didn't have any good ideas for guns (Chris Taylor which was responsible for guns, robots, etc. in Fallout 1 only wrote a manual for Fallout 2, so the guns were designed by someone else)

I still don't see how that makes them "theme park." FO2 has merchants and caravans which go between settlements. New Reno can survive on Vic just like Vegas. People want six, people want drugs and booze, people want to watch boxing. They attract bad people/crime so not every town is going to allow that. So New Reno gives it to them. They get rich off Vic and they use that wealth to get people to bring in supplies. Economy at work. The settlements all have purpuse a meaning. If anything FO3 is the one to be made at, the settlements have no meaning, no farms and very unpopulated and everyone lives of radioactive food much of it 200 years old. Megaton has a big live nuke in the middle which we are asked to blow up :brokencomputer:


Its not pointless to have older real world weapons. Just because new weapons come out does not mean people ditch their older ones. I have WW1 and WW2 weapons. I know people that have alot of weapons form the days of cap and ball. You can make the case that some should be rare but there is no reason they can't be in the game.

Except that this economy didn't exist until NCR was sufficiently developed. New Reno had to survive on its own at least for a century before NCR and Broken Hills were formed. What were they doing? Were Gangster Families and normal citizens eating baby meat or something like that? And if there was infrastructure for keeping the city alive, then where did it go?

The same with Den. What are these people eating? That town is basically just some small business, slavers and hordes of junkies.

In Fallout practically every town except Necropolis had farming. Shady Sands was a farming village, Junktown was a dying farming town with some small business, The Hub was a farming town with more small businesses and a trading hub, Boneyard was a farming/industrial town.
Both Junktown and The Hub had booze, six and gambling and Junktown had boxing, but they were still normal farming towns, not just "vice towns".


The guns from Fallout 1 are their "WW1 and WW2 weapons". There's simply too much of these even older RL weapons and RL experimental weapons in Fallout 2. Hell, they couldn't even stop themselves from adding lots of .223 pistols.
As for being rare - it's a question of economy - how much guns would be even more ancient than the ones in Fallout? They would have to survive the holocaust somehow, together with ammo and spare parts. There are already much fewer guns in Fallout than in real life, so how much would be of these FN FALs and similar guns? It would probably be just a single old gun just like Fallout 1.

Reno - Who said it went anywhere? Game logic - all you see in the game is not all thats there. If you adhere to a "strict" interpretation that what you see in game is all there is, then there are several populated levels in Vault 13 that have no access to the rest of the vault or the outside world.

The Hub was not a farming town. The Farms developed there because of the town, not vice versa. It is a water trading town first and foremost.

Den - They ate at Mom's :wink_smile: Actually, Den isn't just a "Junkie town" it has a (relatively) large thriving commerical business - the slavers' guild. The town stocks up by raiding the Tribals, and there are farmers in the area and gecko trappers as well (go walk around and get some random encounters).

Under review.

Edit: This has wandered way off topic so I am leaving it closed.