Its hard to believe all the monster in game will have only varied magic, health and stamina. I dont think they can do w/o attributes, and I really hope that it isnt FO style pick em once at the beginning of the game! I like maxing out some things and keeping other moderate. Though if we do have attributes that automatically raise per level that would be OK with me... as long as we can still keep track of them.

In other words you have no actual confirmation that they're gone, you just have what I already said you have: an assumption pulled out of nowhere that they're gone because they're not mentioned.

Where is the information that they are gone?

The article didn't go into depth about that. They might be. On the other hand, they might not be, and they just haven't explained how the system works for Skyrim yet.

Of course it is much easier to get people worked up and ranting over something speculated about as a fact, instead of waiting to see what is really going on.

Yep. I think the idea, from what I got, is that the skills are more natural, so if you are playing, say, a stealthy type character, there are certain skills you would probably end up using consistently, and skilling up those to higher levels will end up with additional bonuses or perks or whatever they are being called. Whereas using a skill less frequently, sure it will level up, but it's not giving you big improvements. So... not that dissimilar I guess to getting a +4 to a stealth type attribute because you leveled stealth skills exclusively. Instead, it may just flow more naturally. I'm guessing here, because at the end of the day, we don't know squat about how it will work or what's actually "removed" vs. "revised" I think Skyrim sounds pretty sophisticated.

Well, if the Attributes are really gone in the game... so they should at least put in some kind of substitute like hardcoe Mode for us addicted to pure RPG-Elements.

There is no information that they are gone. Gameinformer says you gain health, can pick between more health, stamina and magicka and gain a perk at level-up and he assumed attributes are out of the game altogether when it's possible that they are still in the game but they haven't decided how increasing them works, or that they are now static and don't increase during level-up at all (barring perks).

The monster attributes do not matter at all. If you look at UESP for Oblivion monsters, you'll see that the only stats that matter is HP total, damage per attack and the different resistances really.

Okay, again: There are several indications that there will be no attributes.

- They were not mentioned in the article at all, while the leveling process was explained in detail.
- The screenshot of the new interface only shows level, race and skills, as well as the stars that are supposed to represent the perks, but no attributes.
- The "tooltip" for the destruction skill only says 'The School of Destruction covers the harnessing of elemental energies. This skill makes it easier to cast spells like Fireball, Ice Spike, and Lightning Bolt.' It does not mention any governing attribute, which would be important information in this area of the interface.

Is it confirmed? No.
Is it likely? Yes.

In any case, I'd like to have them in Skyrim.

He's not just saying this because they weren't mentioned in the article, I hope you all realize. He's saying this probably because the article states that on level up you can pick to give a boost to health, magicka, or stamina, instead of in the past where you had multiple attributes to boost.

There were no screens of Nords in the article either. By your reasoning, can't we also assume there will be no Nords in the game?

Assuming they are gone i don't see an issue with it. Attributes really didn't do much. All they really did was modify other stats, skills got better more mana, more health etc. Removing them just cuts out the middleman in a sense. End of the day all that mattered in morrowind/oblivion was how much health you had, how hard or accurate you hit etc. How that was derived is kind of irrelevant, from stats/skills or just skills it doesn't matter, the end result of 85% chance to sneak is what mattered. Needlessly breaking things up isn't complexity or depth.

Everyone we saw was a Nord.

You should have used Kajits or Argonians.

That's completely different. That's not even the same thing at all. How many Elder Scrolls games in the past have a section of the menu called "Nord"? They took a screenshot of the menu where an "Attributes" section often was located in past games, and it was not there. Your anology is completely off, and would only be comparable if they took a screenshot of the race selection part of the character creator and "Nord" was not listed. Besides, there were screenshots of Nords anyway.

Do you have any proof of that?


I'm trying to prove that just because we didn't see something in the very first glimpse of the game we have seen, that is no reason to believe it is not in the game. Just like there is no evidence that the characters in the screens are Nords, there is no solid evidence that attributes have been cut. How do you know those screens were of Nords?

Yep, it's very likely they're gone then. <-- That makes it very likely they're gone.

TES is starting to look more an action game than RPG, atleast there's morrowind.

That's not my reasoning. It's not just the absence of attributes in the article, it's the absence of attributes in descriptions and screenshots where they should be.
Of course this is just an assumption, but it's based on strong indications.

Also, we know there will be 10 races. I 'assume' one of them will be Nord.

faulgor wrote 3 things that make it very likely that attributes are gone, and you're only saying his weakest argument isn't valid. What about the other 2?

His three arguments can be summed up to "Attributes were neither mentioned in the text of the article nor featured in any of the screenshots, so they have likely been cut." The same can be said about Nords.

Yeah, I guess if you ignore all the past Elder Scrolls games and everything Bethesda has done with the series, then you're right, have absolutely no reason to believe anything is likely (note I didn't say proof, I said likely).

To add to the No Attributes argument; The explanation of the menu system indicates their absence. The article confirmed that their are only four screens in the menus - Inventory, Map, Skills and magic. And we've already seen a picture of the skills screen, which is completely without mention of attributes. Combine this with confirmed 'no classes', and the fact that at level up all you get is a choice between whether to raise health (again, as it raises once at level up automatically), magicka or stamina (fatigue), as opposed to anything at all to do with attributes, and it would only be a logical conclusion that they longer exist.

I'm not liking what I'm hearing about the new system.

Stamina - Fatigue
Mana - Intelligence
Health - ???


From what I see of Skyrim I am impressed with the scope it seems to incorporate. I don't understand Bethesda is going minimalist on this part of the system when it wasn't the part that was broken in Morrowind or Oblivion.

What do you mean by "ignore all the past Elder Scrolls games and everything Bethesda has done with the series?"


The attributes could level automatically depending on the skills you raised to get that level up.

Good point.
Also, I hate to mention it, but birthsigns and racial differences (for the most part) seem to be gone as well.

What we know is that raising skills contributes to your level progress/experience bar. Higher leveled skills will contribute more to your progress than lower ones. When you hit level up, three things happen.

1. Your health is raised.
2. You can choose to either raise your health once again, or choose to increase either stamina (fatigue) or Magicka.
3. Choose a perk.

This is all confirmed on pg.50 of Game Informer. That whole section, which is entirely about the leveling system, mentions attributes not one single time. Combined with what I'd said above about the menu system, and it seems fairly apparent they are no longer playing a part.

Which I beleive is a good thing.

On the past ES games attributes governed skills, and they appeared on the skill text. And if there were attributes, why don't they appear on the menu where magic, inventory, perks and skills appear? And in past ES games you chose the attributes when you leveled. The only explanation for all this is that attributes are gone, or they became very unimportant and they no longer govern skills and they change automatically (but then if they change automatically, how do they change if they don't govern skills?).



They no longer govern skills as the destruction image suggests, and even if they do, why don't they appear on the menu?

I'd prefer if they didn't take attributes away though, this is starting to become an action game and not RPG. The truth is that they make more money this way by attracting casual gamers, and past ES games players will keep buying their games even if they keep getting madder and madder every game Bethesda releases.