With the information I currently have? Yes, absolutely. It's sounds so simplified now it makes me want to cry. Having said that I don't know the whole system. I'm hoping they've added depth and choice in other ways, and if that is done well then I could concede the removal of attributes.

This can mean:

• Attributes are gone.
  
• Attributes do not change a lot, like in FO3.
  
• Attributes change dynamically in-game, not in level-ups.

All of which can result in great game-play, if other aspects of the game is done right.

Yup. Exactly.

I just don't see Elder Scrolls as something that needs to be simplified. I think the depth of it is a huge part of what people love about the series.

Skyrim the Action RPG

To Oblivion, I apologize, for I have judged you in a more draconian manner than I should have,
To Skyrim, you're becoming an action RPG, and that me gloomy,
Oh Skyrim, turn away from this action RPG path, for I have Fable (1, 2, and 3),
Please don't do this, Todd,
Please, please, please don't do this to our beloved franchise,
Or has your desire for wealth consumed you?

Fin

But seriously, why on Nirn would he want to do that?

I have read the article and there is absolutely no indication that attributes will be removed.

Well, I think they'll remove iron armor and claymores, since they weren't mentioned in the article. They even mentioned regular swords, so claymores are impossible! /sarcasm

And the Menu argument: yeah, I'm sure that means there also won't be a Journal. Or a save system!

Look at the Arena menu. Your attributes are listed. Look at the Daggefall menu. Your attributes are listed. Look at the Morrowind menu. Section of it lists your attributes. Look at the Oblivion menu. Guess what. Your attributes are listed. Now look at that screenshot of the Skyrim menu. Attributes do not seem to exist at all. Also, races, well, they've had a similar look throughout the series, so I don't think Nords will magically look radically different.

Fear not. It's only speculation.

I think that the OP may be correct. If derived attributes can directly be controlled, vis-a-vis being derived from the 8 normal attributes, then this fact does reduce the likelihood of their existence.

I hope so, Wahoo... I hope so, for this would be a dark time for Nirn... It's becoming Fable-ized (although I do love Fable, I love TES because it's an RPG, nto an action one)...

Oblivion never had a page where the attributes and skills were present, and MW was an absolute mashu-up, so while they are slightly comparable I would take any inferences from this with a grain of salt.

My main reason to post is to remind people of the FO 3 menu system, being the most recent system that we have all seen. There is a completely separate section for the SPECIAL attributes and the skills. There are no tie-ins on either page to relate a skill to an attribute. And finally, if the menu system is newly streamlined and accessible what is the use of cramming attributes stats right alongside the skill stats.

Besides, for all we know the Name-Level and Health-Mana-Stamina are just headers and footers that stay put. Or that the Name-Level header may only be present when the things that can affect it, ie skills, are being looked at.

--------



So Eps, instead of conjecture that they cut all the attributes on account of Agility, would you accept that Agility and Speed were merged?
Supported by the 18 count skills.

That's just dumb, the argument isn't "attributes weren't mentioned therefore they don't exist". Attributes weren't seen on the locations they appeared on past ES games: menu and skills. And why would the magazine talk about the leveling system and don't talk about the attributes? Use some common sense.



Same thing as above, use common sense.

IMHO the attributes (aka stats) are an artefact of games long passed where things were almost always decided by random number generators. It isn't difficult to notice that TES has been gradually moving well away from this paradigm in favor of a more organic, actions-based system. While some will argue (correctly) that this is turning it from an RPG into purely an action game, that's just the way it is and it is what seems to be that people like. That said, attributes have no place in such a system. A perfect example is how dubious the Agility attribute became in Oblivion once dodging an attack became litterally moving out of the way. With no "calculate the chance that the attack misses" in play any more (which was really what the attribute was all about in previous games), Agility became bleak. Sooner or later, the devs would start cutting out attributes one-by-one until only the most predominant ones would remain. And, guess what? They're main purpose is to decide Health, Magicka and Stamina. So if the attributes are truly gone (which isn't confirmed yet), then Bethesda simply decided to spare themselves the painful process of chopping attributes one-by-one and get to where they've would've gotten anyway in one major leap (... of fate ).

Oblivion's attributes and skills were on seperate screens. Why can't Skyrim do the same?

Assuming there are no attributes (not entirely convinced at this point) then I'm fine with leaving them out. They were pointless in Oblivion anyway. Everyone could max out all their attributes, and they didn't really do anything that couldn't be done by just increasing skills or your three bars.

I was hoping they would be improved, made more important, and used to differentiate the races more (for example races have max attributes, like male Nords would have a max strength of 115 and a max agility of 85) but since that was a longshot anyway I'm fine with them taking attributes out, as long as they still differentiate the races.

While I agree that the game will likely have a greater focus on action than on roleplaying, I have come to that conlusion based on my experience with Bethesda games and not so much on the possible loss of attributes. I'd say that even Morrowind was more of an action game than an RPG (but most of all it a game of exploration).

What makes a roleplaying game a roleplaying game? All games I have ever played had me play the role of something. When I play startegy games I'm playing the role of a general and when I play racing games I'm playing the role of a race driver. What amkes RPGs different from other games is that they allow you to decide for yourself which role you want to play. And there are two ways to choose your role.

The first is to choose what I like to call the substantial aspects of your role. Things like race, gender, skills, and other stats. Basically stuff that goes into the character menu. Pretty much all RPGs do this.

But there is another way to define your role and that is to choose what I call the insubstantial aspects of your character. Things like moral values and personality. The sort of stuff you can't really put into a character menu, but which still defines your character just as much as the substantial aspects do. And most RPGs are pretty weak in this area. The way to define these insubstantial aspects is through quests that give players choices. And I'm not talking about the choice between using an axe or a spell. More like for example a guy got robbed on the road and you can either ignore him, give him gold to make up for his loss, or hunt down the robbers. And if you hunt down the robbers you can either keep the stuff they stole or return it to the man. Basically, you handle insubstantial aspects by having quests with multiple solutions and multiple outcomes. And neither Morrowind nor Oblivion were particularly good at that so I doubt Skyrim will be either.


Now to return to the potential loss of primary attibutes, i don't really mind it. They were never really all that meaningful. The only important thing they did was influence your Health, Magicka and Fatigue. So getting rid of them really just cuts out the middle man. Don't get me wrong, primary attributes can be great in some games, but they are not useful for the kind of gameplay we got in Morrowind and Oblivion so Skyrim really is better off without them.

haha YESSSSSSSSSS they got rid of the attributes !!


OMG MUST READ MORE

I feel so ignorant

*runs to google*

The removal of attributes is both a relief and a concern for me.
The relief? it's possible that this issue has now been solved: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1153938-please-no-more-ocd-spreadsheet-levelling/
The concern? it's rather unexpected for the franchise to actually move away from these attributes, it's been a part of TES since the beginning. I'm worried that the series is becoming more mainstream and losing it's original form.

Maybe your attributes are linked to your body features? Like you can make yourself more muscular, but in return your not that intelligent or something in this direction?

I keep seeing the "they weren't mentioned and they weren't on the screenshot therefore they're gone" thing

Go play Oblivion, open up the menu and go to the skill page. NO attributes appear on this page (unless you highlight a skill and it shows the governing attribute)
Now, just because it doesn't say what attribute governs it doesn't mean attributes are gone. It doesn't even hint they're gone. All these people saying it's likely that attributes are gone simply because they haven't been mentioned are ticking me off, to be honest. Use your noggin and think instead of blatantly jumping to such bold conclusions and spreading your own speculation as true.

I really strongly disagree with that.

What makes RPG's different is that your role can be tailored by you - rather than you playing a monotone character limited by a rigid storyline.

And as far as stats are concerned - there is great room for manoeuver in terms of combining them with action. You only need look at the Oblivion modding community to see proof of that. And also, in an action game - your movements are based purely on timing and skills - whereas in an RPG; you can try to do the actions (shown by an animation upon pressing a key) - but this will yield different results depending on your stats. And your stats reflect your character playing-history.

I would certainly hope so, the 'header' even has arrows at the left and right, which might indicate some sort of wheel.
The race is listed, though. It's the last info in the header.

I don't mind attributes being removed. I figured perks could replace them by offering the same bonuses and effects usually given by attributes.

ahh *edits post*

If attributes weren't mentioned in the article then it would stand to better reasoning and logic that the system has remained UNCHANGED. The article says that when you level you choose to either gain health magicka or stamina but doesn't mention attributes. *IF* attributes are really gone I think Bethesda would have made it a point to mention that considering how much of an impact attributes had on the leveling system and skill in previous games. My assumption is that attributes are still in the game just in some other capacity.