Thank you!

How can the system remain unchanged given what has already been said in the GI issue about Skills - as well as what happens when you level-up.

Even Diablo II has Strength and Dexterity as attributes. I hope Skyrim won't have fewer than that.

It makes sense that training several related skills would give some kind of synergy effect, and the governing attribute mechanic for this has worked well so far.

Quote from Silvaticus from page 3 of this thread:-

"The explanation of the menu system indicates their absence. The article confirmed that their are only four screens in the menus - Inventory, Map, Skills and magic. And we've already seen a picture of the skills screen, which is completely without mention of attributes. Combine this with confirmed 'no classes', and the fact that at level up all you get is a choice between whether to raise health (again, as it raises once at level up automatically), magicka or stamina (fatigue), as opposed to anything at all to do with attributes, and it would only be a logical conclusion that they longer exist."

Attributes could easily be in the game, while working in a way unlike past TES games. Let's pretend both the blade and blunt skills are in the Skyrim, just as an example. Instead of picking strength to increase during your level up, it increases passively as you level the associated skills. As you level blade, strength would passively increase, just like your blade skill would. Strength would still help both blade and blunt, so by leveling blade you would not only be better at blade you would become passively better at blunt as well, because you are becoming more physically strong. You would only increase your hp, magicka and stamina levels actively during level up, the attributes we have become accustomed to would just increase passively.

Wow, okay. Maybe because there wasn't even a section of the menu you could put attributes? How about this: you stop discounting unconfirming yet validly disconcerting pieces of evidence.

The system may remain unchanged in that attributes basically gave bonuses to certain skills. Basic bonuses. Intelligence gave the character a bit of a boost in the amount of magicka and to skills like destruction. These basic bonuses could still very well be present with the perk system acting as a more player involved system to customize our characters. I would venture to guess that only a very slight change to attributes have been made such as attributes leveling up automatically when the character levels up depending on what skills the player used the most during that level. That system has already been in place and you can see it when you go to level up in MW and OB, and you see that you have a x3 next to Intelligence because you used a whole lot of fireballs in combat and leveled up your destruction skill. However I think it makes more sense that instead of giving the player a choice of their three most used attributes, those attributes level automatically and instead, we are given the choice of Health, Magicka or Stamina. Which means that attributes still exist and play a large role in the way the player plays the game.

This is logical.

If something so drastic happened, like there are no longer any attributes, Then it would have been well worthy of a mention imo.

All the "evidence" is circumstantial at best.

Seeing as the GI article meantions all these other things that changed, why not mention that there are no longer attributes? seems like they missed a beat.

Going by that quote, if that's true about the 4 tabs, we can also assume that your journal is gone, too.

At the least we should ask: "Where the hell is it?"

I completely agree with you on this, and very sound arguments. :goodjob:

We in fact know the journal is in because it mentions putting things in your notes.

Good point about the journal/quests

EDIT: Quoted wrong person

Or that it gets it's own screen/button. Which would be understandable. Attributes getting their own.... likely not.

That's also a possibility. They did it with long and short blades - they could do it with attributes.
Anyways that wasn't the point. The point was that all the attributes are losing their meaningfullness with each game.

Look at Oblivion
There were 4 tabs; inventory, map (including journal), magic, and skills (including attributes)
This might be similar... >_>

I agree.


But I hope that they fixed them instead of axing them. :confused:

It isn't, because we've already seen the Skills menu.

we saw side scroll instead of a down scroll.

I don't think there would be as much contest to any ideas here as long as everyone could admit that we do not, in fact, have ultimately definitive answers on the matter.

Fingers crossed That would rock.

Which, to elaborate, has absolutely no reference to Attributes, and contains information that was stored in the attributes tab in oblivion - name, race, level. And given the apparent focus on a minimalistic design ethos, another additional sub screen seems unlikely ( and is certainly not present on the skills screen, which would be it's natural home, surely? as opposed to inventory, map or magic).

Edit: Schnell olfy speaks the truth. But what we do know does seem to suggest that they aren't present. Gabbo's system does sound good, and is a possibility, but it also sounds like something they would have detailed.

It's not a level up screen, the bar at the top show the character is half way through level 9. It's the skill list.

edit:


If the map contain the journal then it need two pages, because when you select the map it zoom out from your character to see the rest of the world in bird of view. It doesn't show a list of to-do quests, done quests and personal notes.



The "4" menus are also missing the "save, load, exit" functions.

I'm worried. I mean, I'll be extremely happy if they did something so that attributes increase passively as their related skills improve. However, I'm also worried that Bethesda did the same thing to attributes that theydid to spears and throwing weapons, and Morrowind-style levelling. As in, they heard some complaints about them (the +5 struggle), so they just got rid of it entirely. I'll be sad if they did.

Let's also remember that Bethesda effectively has 10 months to continue to refine the game. They are actively reading these forums and other related forums to see what it is the players want that could easily be implemented in the game. They are watching these forums so that they know whether or not they have been working in the right direction. This reveal was highly strategic. They are giving themselves enough time to put finishing touches and tweaks into the game and allow for just enough excitement build up among the gaming community so that when the game is released, they can expect their biggest Elder Scrolls opening day sales to date. Just because we only saw 4 tabs in the screens does not mean that only those 4 tabs will be in the game. They have more than enough time to add in additional features and to doubt Bethesda's skills at implementing any feature in 10 months time shows that you have little to no faith in the teams abilities to create a great game from the communities input.

I agree with your premise that RPGs are different etc. To me what makes a RPG is the results are determined by the character not the player. I expect at least on the to hit side of things that is gone from RPGs, which svcks IMO. But I don't see the need for attributes. Let us use D&D 2e as an example(since I don't know the math of morrowind) You are a level 2 fighter with gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 long sword attacking a large sized opponent with a AC of 3. You have a base THACO 19 +3 to hit from strength and +1 from the sword lets say specialized for another +1 to hit so end THACO of 14. You have to roll a 11 or higher to hit the dude, you roll 1d12 for damage +6 damage form strength, +2 from specialization, +1 from the sword for a total damage of 10-21. All great and everything and yes the attributes helped to do damage and to hit. But does it really matter lets say we don't say where you got the Thaco of 14 we just say THACO 14 and leave it up to the player to describe his character so he tells us why he hits that well/poorly. Is it he is highly skilled or is it because of natural talent, or a combination of the two. Is that inherently worse or less complex to leave the description up to the player? I don't think so.

These have never been a part of the character menu system. It would be inaccurate to include that in any arguments here.


Indeed.

I mean, there has been a big enough fuss spanning 3 or 4 threads now. :tongue: