Should Bethesda try harder ? : V - Skyrim

» Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:07 pm

None of those 4 are needed, even Attributes and quite frankly the way that Attributes were done in Oblivion would've been a disastor in Skyrim. I'm glad they cut the bad fat out of the system.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:44 am

1) Attributes
My understanding of Bethesda choice: You don't really need them as they are used only to calculate Health/Stamina/Magicka
My reaction: Ehh, I must be dreaming???? Really??? What about some sensible way to roleplay? What about having more dialogue option for intelligent character or wise ones? What about having a quest only if the character luck is over 80? What about a dice minigame based also on luck? What about swords/greatswords that you cannot use as your strengh is not enough?....It seems to me that 30 years of good RP mechanics are a bit too easily dismissed as irrelevant. Sure perks can do some of these things but it seems really odd.

Luck was a pointless stat - I know that yes, it did stuff, but stuff that wasn't needed and was barely noticeable. There may be a "favored by the Gods" perk or something to replace it, but it's not a significant loss regardless.
If int/wisdom give dialogue options then mages get better dialogue options just for being mages while warriors get shafted, since obviously mages will stack int/wisdom anyway. A combat stat that also determines your dialogue options is kind of bad design and unfair to many character types.
Perks may seem odd, but they are better, you're overreacting I think just because you're so used to the old system.
Attributes governing and being raised by skill gains caused huge problems with their leveling systems in Oblivion. Good riddance to them IMO.

2) Mark/ recall
My understanding of Bethesda choice: They break the game
My reaction: Well...they are supposed to!! Apart from that it doesn't seem so difficult to change these spells so that they can be activated only if certain conditions are met. For instance, in a dungeon I would make them castable only if there is a light coming from outside (like in the game trailer) and no enemy in sight. May I miss some part of the game by using them? Maybe but that's is the beatiful part of it...do I use them and risk loosing something cool or I don't and explore everything?

I think they want us to actually feel like our PCs life is at risk in this game. Admittedly, giving it like a 10 second cast time or something wouldn't be terrible.

3) Levitation
My understanding of Bethesda choice: it breaks the game
My reaction: Again...come on...what kind of answer is this? You can implement levitation the way risen has done it and it wouldn't break any game mechanic, or you could do it the Oblivion way and have some forcefield/whatever guard the major cities and prevent you to fly in (which would make sense due to the presence of dragons). Inside dungeon you just have to make the ceiling low where you don't want the player to take off of invent some other ways to do the same trick (Poison gas/spikes/moving part...) For intelligent people like bethesda folks it doesn't seem a major challange.

It's a good answer because it did break the game. Also changing the architecture of dungeons just to prevent one spell from solving the majority of combat situations for you is not a good solution. They've put a lot of work into combat from the sound of the various interviews, and they don't want us to have a million cheesy tactics that waste their efforts. You can still mod or use the console commands or whatever, if you're on PC, if you really want God mode.

4) Spellmaking
My understanding of Bethesda choice: it breaks the game and it's not needed because you can use your hands to change the power of the spell.
My reaction: mehh...??? Spellmaking was never about only power (aside from the occasional super fire spell we all are found of), was always about smart ways to combine spells and train you. To me it was the essence of roleplaying a mage.Can it really be so difficult to limit the OP spells available in spellmaking?

I don't think this was the reason they gave, it was something to do with how much more complex the new spells are IIRC. Spell making also was extremely overpowered due to the way mana cost was calculated and of course due to some spell effects being overpowered in general, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
For example I have this spell on my current Oblivion character (estimating a bit with the numbers)-

Ashfeed

Weakness to Fire 100% 2 seconds on touch
Fire Damage 20 points 1 second on touch
Absorb Health 5 points 1 second on touch
Drain Health 40 points 1 second on touch
Weakness to Magicka 100% 2 seconds on touch
Fortify Magicka 25 points 2 seconds on self
Invisibility 2 seconds on self

Basically, I close the gap to NPCs with a longer invisibility spell, cast this on them while they cannot see me as long as I keep casting. The damage gets higher with each cast, and the spell is low enough cost(and the second cast is essentially free due to the magicka fortify) that I am able to kill pretty much anything with it, without ever being seen and rarely going out of magicka. Spell reflect enemies are the only thing I might have to change tactics for, but even then as a Dunmer I have high fire resist so I only have to occasionally cast a heal with a 2 second invis on that as well I don't even have to break the invisibility chain.

Unless you don't think being able to kill almost everything in the game once you get around ~50 skill in destruction and illusion(restoration is really optional), then yes, spell making was broken.

Also I just have to say, you're insane if you think they've lost their ambition or are being lazy. Can pretty much guarantee they're harder working than most of the people on these forums.

» Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:43 pm

I don't think this was the reason they gave, it was something to do with how much more complex the new spells are IIRC. Spell making also was extremely overpowered due to the way mana cost was calculated and of course due to some spell effects being overpowered in general, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
For example I have this spell on my current Oblivion character (estimating a bit with the numbers)-

Ashfeed
Weakness to Fire 100% 2 seconds on touch
Fire Damage 20 points 1 second on touch
Absorb Health 5 points 1 second on touch
Drain Health 40 points 1 second on touch
Weakness to Magicka 100% 2 seconds on touch
Fortify Magicka 25 points 2 seconds on self
Invisibility 2 seconds on self

Basically, I close the gap to NPCs with a longer invisibility spell, cast this on them while they cannot see me as long as I keep casting. The damage gets higher with each cast, and the spell is low enough cost(and the second cast is essentially free due to the magicka fortify) that I am able to kill pretty much anything with it, without ever being seen and rarely going out of magicka. Spell reflect enemies are the only thing I might have to change tactics for, but even then as a Dunmer I have high fire resist so I only have to occasionally cast a heal with a 2 second invis on that as well I don't even have to break the invisibility chain.

Unless you don't think being able to kill almost everything in the game once you get around ~50 skill in destruction and illusion(restoration is really optional), then yes, spell making was broken.

Couldn't have said it any better. Custom spells are incredibly broken and require little effort at all besides being 50 in certain skills and that's doesn't take long to get to that threshold.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:46 am

It's not that Bethesda should try harder, it's just they don't have the time and they cannot tailor the game to everyone's expectations. Todd said in an interview there was so much they wanted to do but had to make decisions on what they wanted to be in and what they would have to leave out. Some of the stuff added will be great for some people and useless to others, while some of the stuff cut will be no problem for some and a big deal for others, but it can't be helped.

» Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:49 pm

It does not BREAK the game, it simply severely limits design to things that function well with Levitation or M&R. Without those things, they lose about 10% of their options when designing an area, but get like 80% in return. Kudos to them for making the right choice.

million times this
also i think they said something similar to this

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:51 am

DONT WORRY GUYS!!! BETHESDA HAVE GIVEN US THE OPTION TO MARRY IN PLACE OF USELESS THINGS LIKE SPEARS AND ATTRIBUTES!! ARENT THEY GOOD

Oh my freaking GOD...when do people realize that Bethesda do not sit down around a table and go "let's take spears out so we can have marriage instead!".
They don't just cut things to make room for other things. If they feel something isn't working and they can't make it work the way they want it...why have it? To satisfy the 0.3% of people who just can NOT live without or the maybe 10% who long for the Morrowind days?
And attributes were NOT cut to make room for other stuff, they just didn't work with the new skill system...

Now as many others have posted on this thread...is it lazy to try out new stuff? Is it not ambitious to try to give the genre some much needed breath of fresh air? "No no...make it the same as always! THAT'S ambitious, because then I'm happy!!" :celebration:

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:03 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1IRxTN-_kU hahaha

As for mark recall, it simply destroys immersion and challenge.

» Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:27 pm

Oh wow now I will never buy a Bethesda game again. Thank you for showing me they don't try hard enough. :facepalm:

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:31 am

he only things I'm really peeved about is the removal of spell-making. There's no reason this shouldn't be in; it's a crafting ability that goes along with the other crafting abilities: smithing, alchemy, and enchanting.

Same here, spellmaking made it really fun to be a mage and be able to create my own attacks. Of course it can be exploited but it is still a very good function to have in an open world rpg.