The dialogue wheel idea is fine as a mechanic, but I'm not sure exactly why Beth went that route. I think it was basically to ensure that conversations were handled more concisely. There were a lot of relatively pointless or repetitive options in the past, plus the possibility for complex conversation trees to get caught in loops.

If they're going to simplify it this much, I would build a mechanic like Divinity: Original Sin into the gameplay. Dialogue options would be something like UP is always the "Noble" response, DOWN is always "Negative", LEFT is "Smart-Ass", and RIGHT is "Sly/Greedy". As you consistently choose one over the others, you get "personality perks", giving unique bonuses or even unique skills. Something to reward consistent role-playing.

Something like this could become part of a new Karma system.

It would be great if they did, but I see three big reasons that it wont happen:

1. the cost to fix it and then fix any bugs the changes cause.

2. A large enough % of the player base like the current system (see this and every other similar poll).

3. Bethesda would be admitting the new dialogue system was a bad idea.

Having gone back to Skyrim it was a real eye opener how many of the conversations only gave the player one or two response options; and much of the time that was perfectly fine. But it was nice that the old system was flexible enough to give players more than four dialogue options when it was appropriate.

I definitely like the full dialogue option, but I do like how simplistic the new dialogue option is, General.

Yes.. the dialogue system makes it so that you can miss pertinent information by not picking the correct line of conversation. It makes the story feel non-linear... you end up doing things and have no idea why you're doing them.

I tried out the FDI for like a day, didn't see how it was an improvement, and uninstalled it. I'm fine with the wheel. The FDI doesn't "add" anything, it just writes out exactly what you're going to say instead of the general idea. The dialog prompts in the dialog wheel have always been descriptive enough for me to get the general idea. I've never had a "wait, that's not what I wanted to say" moment while playing the game. At least not in the sense of the dialog not matching what the prompt said. There are plenty of examples of dialog options from Fallout 3 and NV that basically come out to the same end result, or one of two possible end results. Many people make it sound like every instance of dialog in Fallout 3 and NV had like at least a dozen different options or something like that. They really don't have much more though by my reckoning. They have the "yes, I'll do that", "yes, I'll do that if you're paying me", "screw you, I'm not doing that" and so on. I don't think Fallout 4 really has fewer choices. I think the choices just largely seem like less of a choice because there's no Karma. There's no real consequences for your actions, short of the direct results of the quests.

And regardless, I highly doubt that this is something that they're going to patch in. They'd have to put resources into it, and despite the frustrations that many people have with the dialog system, there's a whole list of significantly more important things to address in patches. Getting added in DLC is a possibility, but I highly doubt that they'd include it there either. They're not going to really return a profit on something like that.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of people gave up on the dialog wheel and installed the FDI almost right away. It took me a little while to figure out how the dialog wheel really works. For example, if you choose the 'down' option in the wheel, it almost always progresses on to the next section of dialog. If you choose the 'left' or 'up' options, it usually branches into a different section of dialog then lets you come back to the first section. In my second and now my third play throughs, I'm still regularly hearing dialog that I never heard in my first play through. I kind of like this. It helps keep the game at least somewhat fresh.

It's both,imo.

The wheel doesn't adequately describe what you are going to say. I hate having to guess during a convo. I have the mod that removes the wheel and I'm much happier.

However, the problem with removing the wheel is it is clearly revealed just how little choice the player is actually given. When I'm feeling especially cynical I wonder if they implemented the dialogue wheel specifically to obfuscate the banolity of the dialogue. The dialogue they created to cut costs because they decided to voice the protag. Dialogue that consists mostly of yes, no, maybe and go on so it can be reused.

Beth is usually very good at taking feedback and working it into their designs. There were some large threads in Oblivion about being "rushed" along the main questline, always feeling like you shouldn't be exploring the world in your own way. There were huge discussions about this for Skyrim. When things garner that much attention, Beth seems to respond. Fallout 4 does not hurry you along except where it makes sense for individual missions here and there.

As for the dialogue going through major changes...

...this would be a wonderful consideration for future titles. There are two, simultaneous tightrope acts going on here, though:

1.) Bethesda is marketing for a mass audience. Incorporating deeper, more meaningful dialogue (which I am wholeheartedly for) would also mean that it may begin to reach over the heads of younger players. Middle school aged children make up a pretty huge chunk of Bethesda players. Sales could be quite drastically impacted if things get too mature in both content and execution for the dialogue to make sense to younger minds.

2.) The increased cost of production in the writing arena would significantly impact the overall budget of the title, meaning Beth would need to do all the business stuff to ensure that production still flowed with such a major focus shift. And think about how long it normally takes for a Bethesda title to go from inception to release.

If the next titles were to incorporate this, it would result in both a more complex and far shorter game.

If you add branches to a story, you need to add a different story for each branch. If there is to be another branch later on, you need to tie in the prior branch(es) and add an additional branch for each option at that junction, and so on. This exponential, tree-like growth of writing, and design, and recording gets HELLA complicated very quickly...and the player will only experience 1 possible path from beginning to end, despite the fact that ALL of that work was done for ALL of those other paths. Even if 470 hours of content, options, and junctures were added, it might only take 15 hours to move through a single path from beginning to end.

I think...this is exactly what they should do. I would pad the main quest with encouraged (or even required!) free-form exploration, lots of meaningful side-quests that really make you feel like you had an impact on the situation, and many possible endings. So if I finish the ENTIRE game in 4 or 5 sittings, I'm super excited -- I can now delve into again from a totally different angle with a totally different character and have a totally new experience with a totally different result.

I'm sorry, did I say something wrong? I was referencing the link in the OP.

To me it was the opposite: I didn't know how many options I had until I removed the wheel

As far as yes, no, maybe issue goes, it's present in literally every RPG out there, just masked. When one looks under the hub, there's always around three options. Which makes sense, because its a pain in the BLEEP to design more for one dialogue. The wheel actually makes this design issue MORE pronounced, not less.

The Yes, Yes, No, Yes option is not really present in literally every single RPG video game in existence.

I'm almost positive they'll try something else next time, but they're not going to (and shouldn't) change the dialog for 4. Not the menu, not the things we say. It is what it is, and it's not a disaster, a failure of game design, or even just bad. It's just a completely different way of doing it. And it's pretty consistent with the amount of options we got in Fallout 3 or Syrim (actually it's a huge improvement over Skyrim), and the only edge New Vegas has is more heavily emphasizing our stats in dialog.

Eh, with the tweaks they are willing to make to Fallout 4. I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

Lets see what they do with the Survival Mode tweaks first.

Either that or it's too hard for me to let go haha!

The survival update is an optional new game mode, not a change to a core design decision. It came out of an internal game jam, like a lot of their DLC ideas.

Yes I know this.

Still Gstaff yesterday I sent him a Private Message (PM) about the dialogue wheel to get removed and he said he already relayed this feedback to the team.

He hasn't responded to the topic today, but I hope he does some tomorrow or some other day and says something about it like hey guys we are listening to your feedback about the dialogue system. Or something like that.

They said they are willing to make tweaks to Fallout 4, not just something they add in later or DLC's or whatever.

We need to wait and see before we judge.

It can amount to nothing.

Right, but other games do a better job of writing dialogue that provides the illusion of choice. In most RPGs you aren't given actual written dialogue that simply says:

a- yes

b- yes

c- no

d- yes

or mulitple versions of the same line with a word or two changed.

FO4 does both of these things in its dialogue with no attempt to disguise what they are doing. Cleverly written dialogue that disguises these simple mechanics makes a game more interesting to play, imo, because your character is engaged in the decision making. I've been taking pictures of the most egregious examples because, frankly, I'm astounded at how repetitive the dialogue is now that I've gotten it out from behind the wheel. I blame this issue on the four response requirement. There are times when conversations should offer two options, but because the wheel forces four the other two responses are dupes of the two they need.

Why should I care if there are redundant options, if the dialog would have only had two options in the first place? And I've only ever noticed this with the most basic quests, or the radiant quests.

I think the wheel is way better, than what we get with the mod.

What's the point of reading the full text, before hearing it once again being said by your character?

It doesn't make any sense to show the full line, if we have voice acting in the game.

I'd hate seeing it changed and being forced to see full lines.

I would have loved to see them do something with the whole kellogg-Valentine mind meld thing. I thought the main quest was going to take a psychological thriller from there and was mostly disapointed from then on. With a few exceptions.

The dialgoue wheel is not better it svcks.

I hate words being in a wheel or oval and not having full sentences written out to read.

You don't have to care. If you like it, congrats and great. I'm happy for you. I like the new perk system and a lot of people complain it's stupid and simplistic. Everyone has preferences.

if they make us read full sentences like in the previous games, they better remove the voice as well ^^

why would someone ever want to read the same thing twice in a row?

The purpose of the wheel is to remove the repeat of the same text

it's either 'wheel and voice' or 'full text and no voice'... anything else doesn't make any sense

Fallout 4 does not have a yes, yes, no, yes dialog system. Sure, you could cherry pick examples from the game where this is the case, but I could probably find several examples of this from every single RPG I've ever played.

A typical Fallout 4 quest has options to simply agree to help, agree to help in return for payment, refuse to help, or to give a sarcastic or aggressive response. I can't really think of many quests from Fallout 3 that offered more options than this. There are a handful of quests that actually DO have a yes, yes, no, yes dialog wheel...but there are examples from Fallout 3 and NV where this is basically all you've got too. There are quests where you decide whether or not to kill a companion. There are quests where you decide whether or not to destroy entire factions that you've been working with. You have a choice to kill your own son. You have the choice to help NPCs or tell them to go screw themselves. There's plenty of choice in the game, and in my experience the dialog has reflected this.

Personally, I'll take the dialog wheel + voiced protagonist over just a list of statements any day. There's not even a debate in my mind.

I don't know about that.

I saw this picture on imgur.com a few weeks ago.

http://i.imgur.com/nVCQ4QZ.jpg

The mod that removes the dialogue wheel that a PC gamer who is a modder made shows how badly the dialogues are written once the dialogue wheel is removed and text lines are put in place written in sentences.

It's the same words with just a few new words.

****some spoilers ahead****

There are plenty of instances where that is the case, but that picture doesn't represent all of the dialog in the game. That is a VERY cherry picked example. That appears to be at the end of the Spoils of War quest, after going to Mass Fusion to get the beryllium agitator for the BoS with Proctor Ingram. There's not really a 'choice' to make at this point. You already made the choice when you decided to help the BoS over the Institute, so I'm not sure what more is needed here. They put some options to tailor the response (however slightly) to your personal taste. Lying isn't an option, since Ingram was with you when you got it. Keeping it isn't really an option, at least not in a realistic way. They wouldn't let you get away with it (putting aside the fact that you're a level 1 million character that can single handedly level an army). The Institute is hostile toward you at this point so it's not like you can change your mind and give it to them instead. What options should have been in that situation?

I'm not trying to argue that the Fallout 4 dialog system is perfect. It has flaws, and plenty of then. It's overly simplified and it definitely does lack the variety that many conversations in FO3 and NV had. I think the wheel is an improvement. I have no desire to go back to reading statements with a silent character. I'll take the dialog wheel and voiced protagonist all day long. I think Bethesda has gotten enough feedback on the dialog wheel that they'll know what to do to improve it when Fallout 5 comes around.

I respect that you like the wheel and find the dialogue acceptable and wouldn't try to argue out of your opinion. You are free to enjoy parts of the game that I do not. We don't have to agree about what we like. Whether Beth has heard enough about any aspect of the game is fairly irrelevant to how much we want to discuss those aspects. I'd expect continued discussion about the game for as long as there are forums for us to gather in to talk about it.

I wouldn't describe Ballowers example as cherry picked. It's easy to find more like it because it happens enough that I would describe it as one type of dialogue offered in the game (the many ways to say yes being another). I've removed the dialogue wheel in my own game, I've been through all 12K+ lines of the protag dialogue sorting for lines I can potentially reuse in my own modding, I pay close attention to the protag's dialogue while I play and I've played about 400 hours now so I feel confident in my observations. There are absolutely conversations with more variety, the companion stuff is probably the best, although some of the quest conversations are varied as well.