If you really want to make the Mojava a better place for the people that live there, including the BOS... Then become a member of the Brotherhood... support Mcnamara, Join the NCR, help the NCR in their War agaist a nation of primitive moronic slavers, and when that Fiesty Female NCR Col. tells you to wipe out the brotherhood, talk to McMlamara, and he will see reason.... The broodhood will fight for the NCR to protect the damn... They arn't as close minded as some of you make them out to be.. They are still people, trying to do what they feel is right, but at least they see reason, and are willing to go together, Unlike House.. or Casear... An Independent Vagas has no Future..... House was the Glue that cept it going, and without him, it will fall apart... Joining the NCR nation gives the people of New Vagas a Chance to start over.. With REAL laws... and real repersention.. being how if they joined the NCR.. they would get their own Congressmen, that would speak out for there wants... They would get to vote...

I'm I the only one that supports the idea of rebuilding again? of getting everyone together, under a Democratic-Republic, with laws, and Human rights....

They are self centered jerks, the only way I'd let them live other than to give NCR some extra guns against the Legion would be if I could make Veronica the chapter leader, then I could realy trust them.

They are nothing like Lyon's chapter in the east, bring justice to these heretics by whatever means possible.

The ideas the NCR has are nice n all, it's the way they act on them which makes them villains, IMO.

There is nothing nice or righteous about taking peoples land, forcing them to cultivate the land for NCR, taxing the hell out of people, and all the other crap they pull.
Yes, people want to rebuild and want human rights, but NCR is trying to accomplish too much too fast. They seize far too much for them to properly manage. Simply said, their eyes are bigger than their stomaches.

The NCR brings Civilcation, Science, Law, Human Rights, Democracy, and a chance to live with out fear, in a very broken world..... Not to mention the lives the NCR sacroficed protecting the poeple of the Mojava agaist an Evil Slaver nation.... I knew The NCR was a force for good, during the interigation mini quest at Camp McCarin.. I wanted to beat that Casaer Legion Centerian to death... How many lives did that man help destory... and even after that.. The NCR follows the laws of Habus Corpus.. The Right to a trail... No Cruel and unusually punishment..... Even after the lives that were lost fighting the brotherhood.. they are still willing to make peace with them.. and move on together....

As far as seizing land? Pfft... How do you think Nation's are forged? Why Should the NCR allow some Gangster Thug like Mr. House control Hoover Damn, and dictate energy policy? Before the NCR moved into the Mojava... the area was rulled by ruthless Raiders, tribles, and an arrogant old man who is willing to destroy the lives of anyone who stands in his way, of what he thinks is "progress". The Brotherhood is stuck in their ways, but i beleive they will come around... them siding with the NCR is the first step... And i think its appalling to kill an entire group of people, when you can use you're diplmatic abilties to broker peace instead..

The NCR battle with Casaer Legion, is a battle of Liberty vs. oppression.... The people of the Mojava complain about the NCR.. but where would they be without them? I'm talking about Pre-courier time..

The war in the Mojave is not good versus evil, everything is grey. Most of the people of the NCR have good intentions, but then there are corrupt brahmin barons influencing the incompetent fools who now lead the Republic. The Legion is a warlike and cruel nation, but their territory is some of the safest in the wastes. Mr. House is a pre-war genius who actually has the capabilities to forge the Mojave into a prosperous nation, but he is willing to do anything to see it happen. He may be an old man willing to do what it takes, but he is not just a "gangster thug". Frankly, why is the NCR entitled to anything in the Mojave? As far as I can tell things started slowly going down hill after Tandi died. They spread themselves too thin and their reach is quickly exceeding their grasp.

Ugghh, another Herp Derp, NCR=Good/America, Legion=EVULLL...
I've heard it too many times to count, or take seriously.

It's quite funny how you say it's evil that Mr.House is willing to kill anyone who stands in his way, but think it's alright when NCR does the exact same thing.
The BoS may be "stuck in their ways", but so are the NCR.
See what you want to see, and disregard the rest. With that view on things anyone in the Mojave could be the "good guys".

The truth is NO ONE in the Mojave is completely good or evil. The game was made that way so YOU can decide which faction you felt was best suited to take control of the Mojave.

My problem is that I havent found a way for an independent ending in which House lives.
I dont think it exists, and I really dont want to kill the House, Im a big fan of him.

So I usually side with the House come endgame and my problem with that is that I then have to take out the Brotherhood, who I also really like.

Its a conundrum.

Does Mr. House Provide Aid Centers for the poor? does he offer protection to those that can't protect themself? Does he use his vast wealth for anything other, than his own goals... If you read the [email="H@H"]H@H[/email] tools computer.. you will see he didn't even love his own son.. I never said the NCR is pure GOOD, but what they can offer people alot more than what Casaer or House can....

You say that the lands Casaer Legion hold are peaceful.. Well im sure Nazi Germany was very peaceful inside germany, but it doesn't take away that they are a tyranical...

This topic is still going on?

I hope somebody starts a good topic sometime soon this part of the forum is running slow

Comparing Caesars Legion to Nazis is like comparing Mature red chedder cheese to the Loadout on a F-15E.
"NCR has guns! OMFG Nazis had guns! NCR is Nazis!!!"

I dont know if this is a reply to my post or not, but if it is I call http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law.
And if its not, I still call Godwin's law.

Lol!! that is a good one Merari... Maybe i should have used Soivet Union.. but that is funny...

I spare them for the moment.
They don't posess a real threat to my MKII army , and don't seem to want to leave their precious bunker.
If they start becoming a nuisance, I may change my mind.

Look, buddy, this isn't as complex as you're making it out to be. You might like both, but ask yourself, does anyone in the Brotherhood have a mustache? Does MacNamara? Does Hardin? Of course not, and that tells you everything you need to know.

Vote for the mustache, Courier. Vote for the mustache.

Ah, but I have never liked men with moustaches.
I think they make people look a bit silly, and honestly, it takes time and effort to maintain a well groomed moustache and that says something about a man's personality, when it comes to ego-gratification, fussyness, and demeanor.
It is said that people with moustaches have something to hide and it is also said that is their upper lip.

I prefer my men rugged, but clean, like in a Hugo Boss commercial. Five o'clock shade is ok, but not much more.
Call me silly that way.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/3/32447/1564402-196px_mr._house_human_card_large.jpg Feel the testosterone!

Yes, its very.. measured.
It says: 'Im a serious man, who wears a serious moustache. Likely I smoke a pipe while reading magazines on topiary or duck hunting.'
Still, he would look ten years younger without it and have a boyish charm, I might want to date that.
As is, hes a man with a moustache and has no chance.
I admire the man for his accomplishments and genius, and if that comes with a moustache so be it, but its not romantic material.

No Mr.House does not provide such amenities, but he sure does give a safe haven for all that wish to seek it(if they have the cash of course) Who cares if he didn't love his son? Did you know him? Does it give his life story? For all we know his son could have been some creepy child molester who burns innocent kittens alive.
It's just like I said, "see what you want to see, and disregard the rest"
If the NCR really gave 2 [censored] about the people they wouldn't do all the crazy ass shiznit they do. They would act more like the FotA, who do indeed help any and all who need help, to the best of their abilities, which are severly dwarfed by none other than NCR.

It's ok if you think NCR are all for one, and all that corny crap. The simple fact is that while their intentions are to help the people of the lands they seize, the way they act on those intentions are flat out unjust. It's the same with the legion, while their intentions are to help, the way they achieve these goal are simply wrong(largely due to Caesar, IMO)
While on the topic of Legion, when did I ever even mention that "the lands that Caesar holds are peaceful"? Oh, right... I didn't. There it is again "see what you want to see, and disregard the rest".

You need to take that NCR blindfold off and realize that NONE of the major factions in the Mojave have successfully implemented their goals without doing some evil.(FotA are the best at doing what they believe is the best for the Mojave, without needlessly killing, IMO)

I've seen a group of Mk II Securitrons take out a group of BoS paladins, and when you ad the Courier those odds get much worse. So, it doesn't really matter.

I did it once. Getting out of their base afterwards was the toughest fight in the whole game, besides facing a group of deathclaws.

It's ALOT easier if you wait till your science skill is atleast 70, having it at 100 just makes it a cake walk.
I used to destroy em just so I could have a nearly endless supply of PA and crap to sell. After Lonesome Road, you really don't need anymore crap to sell.
Within the first 20-30 mins, you have more valuable items than you'll ever need.

Sublime.... I never said 'you' said casaers lands are peaceful.. someone else on this thread said that...... And you're right.. I don't know if Mr. House's son was a good person, but you don't know if he was a bad person..... And if he was an Evil person.. that tells you what kind of person Mr. House is... Phychopaths breed phychopaths... There is a reason why people say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree....

Just becasue the NCR has elements of curruption doesn't mean their system is broken.. it means certain indivuals that are in the NCR are broken... The greatest sin of all the sins is Pride... And that is what is keeping the people of the Mojava from accepting the NCR.. You have to look at the quialty of life.... Look at the quialty of life in NCR lands.. compared to the alternitive... the NCR follow a system of rule that is decided by the people, they have a government that is elected through votes... Where every indivual has a voice... I understand there are Rich Brahmin barrons that push people around and pay people at the top off.. But there are those that will fight agaist those people in the NCR... its a system of checks and balances.. Where no one person has total say over all others... thats the idea at least the NCR beleives in.. and I stand with them over a man that Lord's over people through fear and force.... Outside of his walls, there are childern that are forced to chase rats just to eat... Mr. House may be a genious and a brilliant visionary, but he is more machine than Human... he lost his Humanity long before the great war.... Everything he is, is inward... His vision.. His Money... His City... His legacy.. His Rule...

And Casaer is just a classic tail of a religous nut who's personal believes are shattered.. So he makes up his own beleives and history...

And after meeting the Van Graffs.... I can see why the brotherhood want to keep advance tech away from people who would abuse it...

I can appriate the Followers work... and I do admire what they do for people... But the followers have no army.... they have no means of really protecting themselfs or others, from groups like Casaer's Legion..... If it wasn't for the NCR, all of the Followers in the Mojava would have ended up on a cross...

The NCR had The same president for 53 straight years, there's nothing Democratic about that.
Were just gunna have to agree to disagree, I find the NCR to be nothing more than criminals hiding behind a flag, where you see them as the next best thing for the Mojave.

The NCR isn't my fave faction, but they aren't as bad as Ulysses says they are.

As for the Brotherhood, a lot of people go Indy solely because
I would just ignore them. Doing Still In The Dark and Eyesight to The Blind are good, but politically-wise, just ignore them.

Uhhhh, Mr. House never HAD a son. Anthony House was his older half-brother who robbed Robert House of his inheritance when their parents died. I have no idea where you get 'son' from all that.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Anthony_House