Ok, so basically as part of Season Unending I gave Markarth to the stormcloaks (don't know why, just seemed like the fair thing to do)

Anyway soon after I realised how annoying Throngvar (or which ever silver blood it is) is, I mean he is irritating as a normal guy but as a jarl he's just an ass.

So I don't know what the general consensus is on Igmund but I sort of like him and I am currently on the jagged crown civil war quest so I can choose which side to take.

Here's my question should I take the imperial side to get back Igmund?


If you like Igmund then why is it/ is it not worth doing?

If you don't like Igmund, why not?

Igmund is the reason the entire civil war started. He tells you he and the Empire supported Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in order to take back Markarth from the Forsworn. When Ulfric took the city, Igmund threw Ulfric under the bus and thereby started the Civil War. He is also extremely racist against Bretons as Reachmen aren't even allowed to own any property in the city. Don't even get me started on the fact that he executed a man's daughter then threw him into life anyway. Thongvor may be a tad annoying but at least he swears that he'll work to stop the Forsworn which means that unlike Igmund who is either too ignorant or idiotic about their threat, Thongvor actually plans to do something about the Forsworn and if you listen to ambient dialogue after you win for the Stormcloaks, he is writing letters to Ulfric proposing sending troops to clear out the Forsworn. At least the Reach will be safer with Thongvor.

When you scratch the surface, Igmund is one of the worst jarls in the game.

I thought it was Igmund's father who offered Ulfric and his men free worship of Hjalti Early-Beard the Breton. Or am I mixing up information again?

And there are many reasons the civil war started. If you back far enough, you could say Martin Septim caused it, or the Champion of Cyrodili, or even Lorkhan and Akatosh.

Rebel overthrows the King, only for Rebel to become King. And the cycle repeats.

If you're looking for white hats in Markarth you came to the wrong hold.

Igmund says "we." I do think it was his father, but Igmund was apparently involved and takes responsibility for it as a dumb idea.

In my opinion, giving the Silver-Bloods even more control over Markarth sounds like a bad idea. Igmund and Thongvar are both pathetic excuses for sentient organisms, but Igmund is the lesser of two evils. Igmund may have done some grisly things to the Forsworn when Markarth was retaken, but the Silver-Bloods cranked it up to eleven with the massive conspiracy they created, as well as all of the innocent people they've sent to toil away in the mines until they collapse from exhaustion.

Innocent? All I saw in the prison was a bunch of murderers that deserved to be there. Plus Thongvar actually plans to do something about the Forsworn unlike Jarl Igmund the do nothing man. At least Thongvor will ensure the Reach is safe. Has Igmund done anything regarding the Forsworn situation?

You just might want to reconsider changing your opinions about Igmund being the lesser of two evils by listening to Braig's story.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Braig
This man, Igmund, is more of a monster than Thongvar. While Thongvar owns the prisons Igmund is the Jarl.. a man with authority.
Members of the Forsworn are no way considered innocent. They're classified as bandits. They go around killing innocent people, including trying to kill the player ( you).

They all deserve to be put in Cidhna Mine where they can actually contribute to society by mining silver.

I don't understand why Ulfric would place him as jarl.

Yes, I've heard his story. It was certaintly a heart-wrenching tale, but I never set out to paint Igmund as Jarl of the week.
The Silver-Bloods abduct and kill people for asking questions, use their Forsworn prisoners as hatchetmen, and use Markarth's finances for their own malicious deeds. How can giving these people the same authority as Igmund make things better? Cripes, atleast Igmund was only killing Forsworn.
I wasn't referring to the Forsworn as innocent, I was referring to the people like my character who were framed and sent to toil away in Cidna mine. You think I was the first guy trying to figure out what was going on?

As for the Forsworn, they are just fighting for the freedom to worship their own gods and for independence from their current rulers, just like the Stormcloaks. Yes, their tactics may be more gruesome, but they are still fighting for the same ideals. And a tag makes little difference, especially when Sven the bard in Riverwood is a lumberjack(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sven) and Maven Black-Briar is a nightblade(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Maven)

I think it's just recognition that things are the way they are, that wealthy people hold political power and they don't have time or resources for a lot of reform. Same with Maven Blackbriar in Riften. It makes the choices nicely grey.

It's quite simple really. Ulfric picked him as Jarl because hes wealthy and already have a well established connection with Markarth. Hes very much like Maven in Riften.


You described how pathetic both parties are but then you come back and say that Igmund is less then 2 evils. This tells me that you're more sympathetic for him. I'm certain theirs no reason why Igmund had to execute that poor mans young daughter. I mean she was fairly young. I can't imagine what she had done to cause this scumbag jarl to have her executed, and force her father to watch right after he was toss in prison for the rest of his life. I don't blame him one bit for joining with the Forsworn. I would too if this ass executes my daughter in such brutal way.


If you're speaking about Eltrys that first started the forsworn conspiracy quest he kind of got what he deserved. He had no authority to investigate the incident. He was causing up fear among the citizens of Markarth by having the player (you) start asking questions about the attack on the market. The player did not seek permission from the Steward to investigate. This is the responsibility of the guards... not Eltrys nor you.

once as jarl Thongvor he mentions that hes going to contact Ulfric to send his military to take care of the forsworn problem, and by sending them off to Cidhna Mine. I don't see Igmund doing anything to taking care of the forsworn problem. Heck they even highjacked Kolskeggr Mine, VERY close to the city mind you. Thats how severe the fornsworn problem is under the leadership of Igmund.


As I explained above you had no right to play investigator without permission from the Steward. What gave you the right to do it anyways? Although you're the dragonborn you're not a thane but a traveler at the time. You were a guest of the city. You had no business mettling in the guards business. You chosen to read the letter and started the quest therefour you suffer the consquences, just like Eltrys did.

Unlike you I never held a grudge for being arrested and getting sent to Cidna mine. I kind of got what I deserved for snooping around. It's like touching a hot stove with your bare hands or not minding your own business.


The Forsworn might be fighting for freedom but they became a terrorist extremist. They're no longer freedom fighters but a group of bandits who kills innocent people. I don't see Ulfric and his boys killing random people. They're only killing imperial soilders

The daughter offered her life in the place of her father's, so instead of being executed Braig was sent to the mines. Igmund wanted revenge for his father's death and the attempted capture of Markarth at the hands of the Forsworn, which explains why his punishments were so harsh.
In case you are blind, deaf, and currently residing outside the solar system, the guards were corrupt. Eltrys' father was murdered when he was young by the Forsworn, but the guards only said it was a 'madman' and did nothing. He wanted to find out who was causing these murders and why the guards were doing nothing about it, and he knew that the only person he could trust was himself and you. He could go to a guard or the steward about it, but then he would just die like so many others before him when the Silver-Bloods found out.
Need I remind you that the Silver-Bloods are using the Forsworn to further their own goals? They even bought off the guards, so I doubt Igmund would have much luck if he chose to take the fight to the Forsworn. They'll continue their campaign of fear as long as the Silver-Bloods deem them useful.
And as I have explained above, the guards were already bribed by the Silver-Bloods, and revealing your intentions to anyone would have resulted in your untimely death. You were a guest of the city, and the only person Eltrys could trust at the time. I had every business mettling in the work of a bunch of corrupt thugs who murder anyone in their way. By doing so, I made the lives of anyone in that city alot better. I chose to read the letter to rid the city of evil and conspiracy, just like Eltrys.
Why did helping an aquaintance find out who murdered his father and many other people become such a big crime? I was only doing what is right by attempting to stop these murders that these guards were so keen to ignore. Being told off for not minding my business is one thing, and to be expected from any officer of the law. However, being framed for three murders makes it clear that these guards are no longer able to adequately uphold the law, and are no better than the bandits I kill on a daily basis. It should not be required of me to stand by and let such unjustices occur, lest I become more evil than the people who perpetrate these atrocities
You know what they say, "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist". If it helps you put it in perspective, the Imperials view the Stormcloaks as terrorists. Naturally, alot of people disagree and insist that the Stormcloaks fight for freedom. Now the (corrupt) government of Markarth has labeled the Forsworn as evil bandits who terrorize their citizen's, and yet every day Reachmen run off to join the Forsworn to combat 'Nordic opression'. Are you noting the interesting parallels here?

Yeah a lot of helpful points made.

A few things I would like to point out though


The Forsworn did rule the reach before the nords, yeah a couple thousand years ago but still, If my ancestors were displaced and you were forced to abandon your way of life I would probably do the same thing as them.


For the whole Igmund started the civil war thing. He didn't really do it on purpose. As far as I'm aware he was fully comitted to bringing back worship of Talos but after the reach was re-taken the Thalmor caught wind of the plan and threatened to start a war with the reach if they didn't inprison the stormcloaks. So from Igmund's point of view it was either honour an agreement HE made and allow his people to die or become enslaved to the thalmor, or make himself look like a scumbag to protect HIS people. Again I probably would have done the same thing in his shoes.

And the first time I heard the radient conversation of Throngvor about dealing with the forsworn threat I thought "Oh maybe he is a nice guy then" until he said "and put them back where they belong, mining silver for us" (not exact quote but close enough) and US clearly being the sliverbloods, meaning the only reason he is so interested in defeating the forsworn is so him and his family can make more money

And the orcs/falmer/dwemer before them.

The problem is, the forsworn(Reachmen back then) would literally kill travellers when they felt like it(Or when the daedric prince they were serving demanded it). Their ways of life included sacrificing people to daedric gods. They were not a stabalizing force in the region. The Bretons hated them. The Redguards hated them. And the Nords hated them.

That is a normal reaction to someone that is willing to risk their lives to protect their father... however executing her was the wrong choice. The Silver-Bloods had nothing to do with executing an innocent girl, it was Igmund. So who's more evil? The Silver-Bloods or Igmund? Who's lesser than 2 evils?


I'm well aware that the guards were corrupted. I understand that the Silver-Bloods had connections with the King of rags, but guess who else was involved with this whole corruption scheme? You got it the Jarl himself. If the Jarl wanted revenge for the murder of his father then he should've executed Madanach instead. Even the man said that he was scheduled to be executed but it never happen because the Jarl was convinced by Thonar Silver-Blood that he was better off in prison then getting the axe on his neck. An innocent girl was executed but not the man that was truly responsible. Funny how that goes. Igmund is a corrupted Jarl. I can truly see who actually runs the city... Same with Riften and with Maven.


While the Silver-Bloods are using the forsworn to further their own goals Igmund is allowing it to happen. He doesn't seem like a reliable Jarl if he can't maintain order in his city.


But what gives you the right to meddling in ones business, and not expect something bad to happen? What the Silver-bloods do is not in any way your business, especially if you're a guest in the city. Sure Eltrys came crying to you for help but that doesn't make it right. Sometimes it's best to mind your business and continue on with your daily life. The only way that you can make the lives better in the city is to go to prison and kill the king in rags. I'm certain that was the reason why Thonar Silver-Blood had you incarcerated in the first place, to see if you had it in you to kill the King in rags.


I never said that it was a big crime. But if you start sticking your nose where it doesn't belong eventually your nose will get burnt. The Silver-bloods realize how uncontrollable The king in rags became, and so they decided to plot their own scheme by framing you for the 3 murders so they can have a valid excuse to send you to prison. You then have a choice of either escaping with the forsworn prisoners or killing them. If you decided to kill them and then escape once you reach the door where it takes you to markarth Thonar Silver-Blood makes his appearance with NO guards at his side, which indicates that he had no intention of putting you back in Cidhna Mine. I forgot what he had said so I can't quote him, but he does explain his actions. Depending on what team you're on he will request the jarl to have you pardon. The guards then starts congratulating you by saying “ You put those forsworn down, good job!”



The imperials may think that the stormcloaks are terrorist but they do not go out and kill a bunch of innocent people. In fact the beginning of the story shows just how much of a terrorist the imperials are by attempting to wrongfully executing the main character (you) and for killing a horse thief that generally would generally give you a 40 gold bounty over your head.

I'm not disagreeing with you that markarth isn't corrupted because it is. It's corrupted because the Jarl allowed it to be corrupted. He allowed wealth to dictate what goes on in his city.

The Silver-Bloods who go around killing people for asking questions appear more evil to me.
What the hell are you talking about? Madanach never said that Thonar Silver-Blood convinced Igmund to let him go, just that Thonar stopped the execution so that he could use Madanach. Stop making crap up and use facts for once.
But the Silver-Bloods are the ones who are killing people in the streets. How can having them in power be an improvement? How will giving the people who are actually perpetrating these crimes even greater power than before bring order to Markarth? That would be the equivalent of letting Hitler takeover England because Chamberlain didn't immediately attack Germany. I am having deep misgivings regarding your logic.
How on earth could you stand by and let the Silver-Bloods kill innocent people? Are you seriously advocating that we should ignore the atrocities occuring in the world because it "isn't our business"? How is getting rid of the man ordering these murders, Thonar Silver-Blood, not improving the lives of the people living in this city? I also doubt they purposely sent you in to kill the King in Rags, since to Thonar you were just another 'troublemaker' distrupting the 'peace'. You were a loose end that was going to blow the lid off his conspiracy, so obviously he would try to stop you.
Unless you have evidence and proof for this wildly speculative tale, I am going to assume he just wanted you out of the way so you wouldn't ruin his scheme. And really, by helping Madanach and freeing him from Cidna mine you destroy the corrupt system that Thonar built in Markarth, as well as killing Thonar himself and his thugs dressed as guards. But by killing Madanach, Thonar is just happy that he has another man out of his path so that he can further solidify his tyrannical rule over the people of Markarth. He doesn't give a damn that people are 'safe', he just cares for his own damn hide and precious seat of power.
Terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
I don't think you really know what that word means. The Imperial captain having you, a horse thief, and a whole slew of terrorists rebels executed without trial may be a little tyrannical, but it was not an action meant to intimidate as one could judge by all the cheering onlookers. The purpose of those executions was not to spread terror, but to put an end to the rebellion. Ulfric killing the High King in Solitude and attacking the insofar uninvolved Whiterun were, on the other hand, meant to intimidate and coerce the people of Skyrim into making him High KingIf you could tell me how putting the Silver-Bloods, who made the city corrupted in the first place, in power would be an improvement, I would be much obliged. If someone is shot and murdered, you don't punish the victim for allowing himself to be shot, you punish the person who pulled the trigger. What you're suggesting is punishing the victim and giving the shooter a minigun.

How many people (with an exception of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Eltrys) had the Silver-bloods killed for asking questions? Provide me with names of the victims because I never came across any other victims.


Uh I never said anything about Madanach saying that Thonar Silver-Blood convinced Igmund to let him go. It was a general statement. Madanach said in quote “I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it.” which backs up my statement.


The Silver-Bloods aren't the ones killing people on the streets. Where are you getting your facts from? The person who was responsible for the killings of people in the city was in fact lead on by Nepos the Nose, the forsworn agent. Somehow he is able to receive orders from Madanach in the prisons. He even said it himself “I've been playing this game for almost 20 years. Sending the young to their deaths. All in the name of the Forsworn. And I'm tired. So tired." He sent Weylin to kill Margret from the market. He continues with his ramble by saying “You aren't the first one to have gotten this far. You won't be the last." and finalizing his sentence with "I'm sorry, you're not leaving here alive." before his forsworn groupies starts attacking you.


The Silver-bloods aren't the killing innocent people. Again where are you getting your facts from because obviously I'm missing something here. Right after you escape the prisons after killing the king in rags you are greeted by Thonar “"My eyes inside cidhna mine tell me that Madanach is dead" he contuines "You've done a great service to the silver-blood family. I've had the jarl officially Pardon you, and taken care of a few other loose ends." You have the dialogue of saying “ You and your thugs had me arrested in the first place.” he replies back by saying "And you've proven that was the best move that I could have made. Don't give me that look. You're free to go." then "Here, how about a little token for your effort? My family's ring and all of the things the guards confiscated from you when you were jailed." and he finishes off by saying "Now if you'll excuse me, I have to figure out how were going to fill our recently emptied mine." Go check it out for yourself by going to http://youtu.be/95hEerdiW9o skip all of the nonsense by going to 19:16 for your proof.

I just gave you proof above By not killing Madanach you might as well help the forsworn to rebuild and to once again start killing innocent people that you accuse of the Silver-bloods of doing. Have you not been attacked or almost killed by a forsworn? I know I have so many times that I lost count. They even kidnapped a little girl from a village and held her for hostage. The room that she was in almost looked like a sacrificing room with blood all over the place.


I know what the word means and stand for. It sounds a lot like what the Thalmor is doing, and the empire is just a thalmor puppet who gets scared when they mention that W word when they don't get their way. Ulfric is driven to conduct violence at the appropriate people because the imperials and the empire isn't doing jack about the thalmor problem. He is watching as his people are being slaughter and tortured by the thalmor. The empire conducts it too because they made it a law.

I just love it how you blame everything on the Silver-bloods and not one word of Igmund... who's the fricken Jarl for mara sake! If the silver-bloods are so vicious and corrupted then why isn't Igmund doing anything about it? Where is his domination of authority to lay down the law? Again Igmund is very much like the jarl in Riften. No back bone and is easily corrupted with greed and wealth. If anything Igmund is more corrupted.

Let's see, Eltrys' father, Margret and while no specific names are supplied it is plainly obvious that these murders aren't new. And for the record, "asking questions" isn't a real crime.
Did you now? I guess I misread it when you said...
How convenient that you develop short term memory loss while we are having this conversation.
Yeah, I did the quest and already know that Nepos gets his orders from Madanach. I am sure that you, as an avid player of this game, heard Madanach say "I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it. He wanted the Forsworn at his call, that I would point their rage at his enemies and spare his allies." (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Madanach). So, yeah, Madanach was taking orders from Thonar Silver-Blood so that he and the rest of the Forsworn were functioning as the Silver-Blood's own personal hatchetmen. However this was so that when Thonar's guard was eventually let down, Madanach could make his move "And I have. Humiliating at first, but I knew he would let his guard down eventually. That he would come to trust I was under control" , which is why he killed Thonar's wife and why Thonar is so visibly overjoyed that you offed Madanach, because he was rebelling against his master. It has been my pleasure educating you on this matter.
I'm glad that I am not so easily fooled as you. Thonar's intention was for you to die for daring to distrupt his control over Markarth. However, with Madanach now attempting to betray Thonar, the King in Rags is no longer a useful asset and must be terminated before he does harm to the Silver-Bloods. He didn't expect you to kill Madanach for him, but since you did he doesn't have to go through all the trouble of hiring an assassin to get inside Cidna mine.
But by not killing Madanach, I end Thonar Silver-Blood's reign in Markarth and put the final nail in the conspiracy that has claimed the live's of so many people. And I don't know if you know this, but the Reach did belong to the Forsworn in the first place. If the Nords don't want innocent people to die, they could just hand over the reach, or atleast let the Reachmen worship any god they want. But in the past, the Nords have shown no willingness to compromise with the Forsworn, so the Nords have their stubborness to blame for letting this conflict escalate.
I see Ulfric has done a great job keeping all of those Thalmor agents out of Stormcloak territories... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Shavari, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:J%27datharr, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor. And I doubt that the Empire is the appropiate target to attack. If he wants to attack the Thalmor, he should attack the Thalmor, attacking the Imperial soldiers and holds in Skyrim wastes resources and kills Nords. And no, just because the Talos ban is a law in the Empire does not mean that the Imperial's enforce it. The Thalmor are in Skyrim because the Imperials weren't (remember that word) enforcing it.
Igmund can't do anything about because all of his guards (who are needed to make an arrest) are bought by the Silver-Bloods. I really do not know how to make this clearer for you: the Silver-Bloods are the ones spreading the corruption, not Igmund. If you want to stop it, you have to take it out at the source. The source, in this case, is the Silver-Bloods. If you take out the Silver-Bloods, that leaves no one to bribe the guards, no one to leave the jarl powerless, and no one to murder people free of consequence.

And yet Ulfric Stormcloak, a man who allows the Butcher to wander the streets of Windhelm at night and murder innocent women, and does nothing to abate racial tension between Nords, Dunmer, and Argonians, is the man you want to be High King?


On topic, the way I look at it is as follows: Igmund may be a callous jerk who is insufficient at ending the Forsworn attacks, but at least he won't use the city guard as his own personal Gestapo to round up people he doesn't like and use them as slave labor (which is the impression I get from the Silver-Blood folks).