Should Merchants Magically know if you Stole Something?

Post » Thu May 06, 2010 7:21 pm

It's probably not much of a big deal, but it always bothered me a bit how in Oblivion the merchants would magically know if you stole an item. Should they know if you stole something, and not allow you to sell it, in Skyrim?
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 8:41 am

I think they just need to refine the system some.Why should the guy in remote outpost of middle of nowhere know that you stole an item from on the other side of the map?
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Kellymarie Heppell
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 7:32 am

I think there should be a cooldown period for stolen items in the town/village where you stole them, higher priced items have a much longer period before you can sell them in that area and maybe even in other nearby places. Outside that area or after the cooldown period is up it should be fair game to sell them to any merchant.
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ashleigh bryden
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 1:48 am

I would think it should matter what you stole. For example, if you took an apple, of which there are thousands, why wouldn't you be able to sell it? If you stole an expensive, but standard, set of armor, your ability to fence it should be limited in the vicinity, save perhaps to professional fences. On the other hand, stealing an incredibly rare item should make it almost impossible to sell, unless it's part of a quest.

I would also like to see attempting to sell stolen loot to its original owner an event that gets the guards called - with the aforementioned rules in place. That is, only significant items produce this response.
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Mr. Ray
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 9:42 am

Well obviously when you stole something you put a sticker on it and signed your name. Duh?

I think they should only make local areas realize this (stolen item reported) so that locally, you'd have to use a fence. Except for rare/unique items. Those should be nationally renowned and require high up fences that you'd need to know somebody to get in touch with (guild/faction, something similar)
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Leonie Connor
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 7:48 am

I think the solution should be that Merchants do not know by default, but that certain items carry an amount of notoriety, and other items might [optionally] bear identifiable markings that the Player does not get to see unless the PC makes a successful perception check (how ever they might do that in Skyrim). Merchants that notice the marks know that its suspect; Merchants that know the item itself, know that its stolen.
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Amie Mccubbing
 
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Post » Thu May 06, 2010 9:40 pm

I would think it should matter what you stole. For example, if you took an apple, of which there are thousands, why wouldn't you be able to sell it? If you stole an expensive, but standard, set of armor, your ability to fence it should be limited in the vicinity, save perhaps to professional fences. On the other hand, stealing an incredibly rare item should make it almost impossible to sell, unless it's part of a quest.

I would also like to see attempting to sell stolen loot to its original owner an event that gets the guards called - with the aforementioned rules in place. That is, only significant items produce this response.


This. Random junk, etc. should be able to be sold. Stealing Hank's favorite custom made armor that he wears around town showing off all the time? Either need a fence or not all.
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Natalie Harvey
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 5:51 am

Yah, no, omniscient guards.
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danni Marchant
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 12:36 am

no. this made it almost required to be apart of the theives guild, aparently you can sell stolen stuff to the poisen guy but I never tested that. at the least you should have acess to fences or sneak or whatever skill should modify whethor or not a "hot" item will be recognized as stolen.
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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 8:28 am

Yah, no, omniscient guards.

This too. One of the most of annoying things in Oblivion was the omnipotent guards. If I kill someone in the middle of the woods, guards shouldn't magically know about it.
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Patrick Gordon
 
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Post » Thu May 06, 2010 9:41 pm

Why not establish a system where the closer you are to where the item was stolen, the higher probability of a shop owner stopping the sale and alerting the authorities? Your bounty would go up some, so it would:
A ) Add realism to the game (In specifics to the concerns Lebowskie raised)
B ) Create incentives for players to go to fences to sell stolen goods (as it would be safer) but not specifically exclude their other options.
Just throwing it out there. I'm trying to think about how bethesda (or modders) could effectively refine and improve the system.
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Louise Lowe
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 11:29 am

I'm hoping they have something similar to what Fallout 3 used. Though instead of Karma, having stealing something effect your infamy instead.
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Nicola
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 1:25 am

I'm hoping they have something similar to what Fallout 3 used. Though instead of Karma, having stealing something effect your infamy instead.


But if no one saw you steal, why would you infamy increase? Karma, be it good or bad, is something that does not require anyone to see you.
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Jordan Fletcher
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 10:44 am

Excuse me if I am wrong, but I thought that stolen items wouldn't even show up in the list when you were selling stuff to regular merchants.
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Monika
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 7:38 am

But if no one saw you steal, why would you infamy increase? Karma, be it good or bad, is something that does not require anyone to see you.


True, but it seems it would be a bit too close to Fallout. I guess that's just a matter of perspective though, the concept of Karma has been around for a long time after all. Maybe come up with Skyrim term for it instead.
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Benjamin Holz
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 2:01 am

Some things that lowered your Karma in Fallout 3 I didn't agree with though. Not to get philosophical, but isn't morality subjective? You might think that it is right to kill a character, but when you do, you get negative karma? Especially if its something as trivial as picking a lock (or hacking a computer) which doesn't hurt anyone if you're not stealing. ;)
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Leah
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 12:08 pm

Excuse me if I am wrong, but I thought that stolen items wouldn't even show up in the list when you were selling stuff to regular merchants.


That's how it worked in Oblivion, but I don't think anyone knows yet how Skyrim will function. I could be wrong of course.
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BaNK.RoLL
 
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Post » Thu May 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Not to get philosophical, but isn't morality subjective?


Up to a certain point. But there are some standards that we can pretty much all agree on. We wouldn't have been able to come up with a system of laws otherwise.

You might think that it is right to kill a character, but when you do, you get negative karma?


I've never received negative karma for ever killing anyone in Fallout, unless they were a complete innocent. So in that case you most definitely should lose karma. That's murder pure and simple.

Especially if its something as trivial as picking a lock (or hacking a computer) which doesn't hurt anyone if you're not stealing. ;)


They're still private property, you don't have any right going into those things. I certainly wouldn't appreciate it if someone broke into my room and used my computer, even if all they wanted to do was play a game. And if you weren't planning on stealing, why would you be engaging in those activities in the first place?
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dell
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 10:47 am

You should sell stolen items to any merchant, besides to the one that u stole the item from duh >.<. and if u try he could notice and report u to the guards. I think thats the way it worked in morrowind.
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Leilene Nessel
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 10:46 am

You should sell stolen items to any merchant, besides to the one that u stole the item from duh >.<. and if u try he could notice and report u to the guards. I think thats the way it worked in morrowind.

In morrowind the guards automatically knew what items were stolen and placed them in locked evidence chests too, so that was still kind of a problem. I don't think they should recognize everything like inexpensive normal everyday items just the unique/rare/expensive stuff.
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Jonathan Windmon
 
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Post » Thu May 06, 2010 11:24 pm

"I feel a disturbance in the law..."
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Rik Douglas
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 3:14 am

If you stole it from merchant A you should be able to sell it to merchant B.
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Amiee Kent
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 7:13 am

Like this:

OK, let's summarize the formula:

  • The stolen items in your inventory are marked as stolen, but as an option, you can toggle the indicator off, if you like.
  • There can be a formula that would define if an NPC recognizes a stolen item from you, if you are wearing it and you pass him by, or if you are selling the item to him, or if he is inspecting your inventory to find stolen items, as a guard.
  • Each stolen item has an internal data, which marks the position that it was first stolen, and has a price, and has a defined owner, and that owner has a faction.
  • Each NPC has a recognition threshold that defines his perception on stolen items, and guards and traveling merchants have higher perception than other people, and any NPC would instantly recognize the items that belonged to him, so you cannot steal a robe from a person and wear it right away.
  • Unique items that are recognizable throughout the nation are instantly recognized.
  • Otherwise the formula is based on the price of the item for the NPC, the distance of the NPC from the original place of the item, the NPC's perception, whether the NPC is in the same faction as the original owner, and whether they are inspecting your items or just see you passing by while wearing the item.
  • The time that the item was stolen also affect the formula, so as the time passes, they become harder to recognize as stolen, except for the unique items.
  • Edit: The relation of your type of clothing with the stolen item can also affect the perception of the inspecting NPC, as well. (Added)
  • Fences do buy stolen items, but they bargain hard, buy cheap, and sell dear, but they can change the item so that it cannot be recognized as stolen, after that.
  • The items that would be recognized as stolen, would be automatically removed from the list, when you want to sell them to a regular merchant, but the ones that are not removed, are optionally marked as stolen so that you know what you are doing.

So you can steal items from a house and sell the junk to the nearby merchant, and go further away and sell the more priced items, and go further away and sell the more priced items there and so on...

For the more important items that you have stolen, you have to find fences, and those people bargain hard, so you cannot become rich overnight, or you can carry them to another town and sell them there to a regular merchant, for better price than what a fence would pay.

You cannot wear a stolen item near the place that it was stolen, for a long time.

That's a sound solution IMHO.

Edit: Worthless junk, food and alchemy ingredients should not have any stolen mark to begin with. You would not recognize a carrot from the other.

Plus this:

I would also like to support what Sphagne said. I really like the concept of NPCs recognizing worn items. I could just see myself walking along wearing a stolen cuirass, when suddenly in a shrill, wood elf voice I hear, "Hey! That's mine! Stop! Thief! Guards!"

I would also like to see some NPCs have a tolerance towards thievery. Especially if it's a first offense and your reputation is otherwise spotless.

You don't think the shop keep is looking, and you deftly pocket the amulet.

The shopkeep looks at your disapprovingly. "Put it back, Nord, if you know what's good for you."

Oops, busted. You place the amulet back on the table and exit the building. You don't expect him to be as forgiving next time.

And this:

Is there any way something can be implemented to allow you to get away with theft, even when caught?

In-game example of how I'd like it to go:

You steal a sword from a man's home as he sleeps. It's just a normal sword, nothing special about it.

The next day, you're walking the street, brandishing the blade, as your victim walks past. He sees you with his sword. To anyone it's just another sword, but this man knows better, he's had that sword for 15 years, he knows every nick and groove on it. He knows it's his.

He chases after you, shouting and screaming for you to give back his sword, then he screams at the guards to apprehend you, the thief. The guards circle you, but with no intent to harm you, and ask if they can ask you about the sword. You can:
A: Refuse, and they'll forcibly detain and arrest you (or try to), and charge you for not co-operating, and maybe the theft too, since running or refusing to answer quests would lead them to suspect you of guilt.

B: Accept, and try to convince the guard that the blade is yours. Factors like personality, reputation, factions and the value/rareness of the stolen object will lead to the guard either arresting you for theft or letting you go about your business, and if this were Sphagne's system, removing the flag from the object, or at least lowering the the chances of you being caught for thievery, as others might still believe the accuser, even if the guards didn't.

Having a system like that, in my opinion, would increase the value of Personality and Speechcraft, which need as much attention as they can get, and add some more flavour to the game.

Why should you be arrested for theft when the only person who saw the crime is the person who would benefit from accusing you of theft? Crimes committed with witnesses around (excluding witnesses you've... silenced) would of course be much more difficult to cover up. But if your Speechcraft and Personality are high enough, there's no reason why you shouldn't at least be able to talk your way out of it.

Edit: Can't type for poop.

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Lexy Corpsey
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 4:28 am

That's actually a really good idea you've got there, Sphagne! I doubt what we end up with will be as sophisticated as your idea, but I do hope it's a damn site better than Oblivion's laughable excuse for a crime system.

Just to add to the merchant/guard example you quoted at the end, I think that both the thief and the character who the sword was stolen from should have to make a speachcraft check to determine who the guard believes. Making it easier to steal from a commoner, or low level merchant, than it would be to steal from a noble or renowned blacksmith.
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Ross Thomas
 
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Post » Fri May 07, 2010 1:17 pm

That's actually a really good idea you've got there, Sphagne! I doubt what we end up with will be as sophisticated as your idea, but I do hope it's a damn site better than Oblivion's laughable excuse for a crime system.

Just to add to the merchant/guard example you quoted at the end, I think that both the thief and the character who the sword was stolen from should have to make a speachcraft check to determine who the guard believes. Making it easier to steal from a commoner, or low level merchant, than it would be to steal from a noble or renowned blacksmith.


Oblivion's system was still an improvement over MWs and Bethesda tends to have much better crime systems than most other CRPGs. That said I'd love to see something like Sphagne's system although I'll be satisfied if they just continue improving it.
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RObert loVes MOmmy
 
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