Even if they did not do the main quest, they still have no rite to complain, because guild quests, side quests, misc quests

Agreed, that's part of the problem. Becoming absurdly powerful is all well and good if it actually takes some time and effort to achieve, so that people can feel like they accomplished something... but in Skyrim, once you're familiar with the system, it can be done in an hour or two with a brand-new character.

^ Yes, THAT too!

It should be freedom of choice to use codes or whatever (if it does not hurt your game for yourself) because it is a single-player game and if u do not like being super strong or having an extra item, u can choose not to do it the next time, but please maybe do not complain if u cast the same spell or kill the same guy over and over and get bored or pretend the game is too easy when u are only doing that to yourself and can choose not to if u do not like it. Why should the game have restrictions for everybody and spoil stuff for all of us, just to babysit those few who do not like the results of boring themselves? Seriously, no restrictions should be needed on a single-player game cause there is nobody u can cheat but yourself, unless u complain and blame the game for u boring yourself, so u can put more controls on. Now i could see somebody complaining if they could not increase their carryweight a bit and get busy on the cool stuff they can find instead of running back and forth to their house dumping off stuff and missing out on things, as making it more tedious and making the game too hard, but really that is nothing like pretending the game is too easy because u had your character stand in the corner and sneak against the wall for hours whilst u had something taped to your controller while u went and watched T,V. LOL. Besides .If U made the game too easy for yourself, try going to explore the world with that advantage and u certainly won't be bored anymore or make a new character and do it without the advantage, It all comes down to having choices. Thankfully, U still have a choice, So enjoy!

i voted NO, on the POLL because how the question was worded, but i also agree with the quote above strongly and totally! Elderscrolls is about freedom and choices and that's some of what most of us seem to love most about it and certainly what makes Elder Scrolls what it is!

I'm split on this one. There is some merit to not having to balance the game yourself while playing. It would be nice if I could just play the game, and not worry if the leveling mechanic I found undermines the developers intent. I don't see tri-crafting as broken, but leveling on Iron Daggers and Petty Soul Gem Enchants does take away from the immersion a bit. Yes, yes, willpower and all that... and I do prevent myself from using these mechanics. But as an engineer, I don't have to go very far out of my way to stumble onto these things and recognize them as a nonsensical 'better way'. I would like to be able to enjoy a clever solution without first considering if it's going to change the game in a way I don't like.

That said, I voted no because most of the complaints we see in the forum aren't actually providing constructive feedback. I AM getting tired of 'waaah, things are killing me because I spammed iron daggers for 30 minutes' threads and the 'fix this because I don't like it' threads...

Hm, all this talk of self-imposed restrictions seems strange to me. I dont feel any more constrained than not eating ice cream for breakfast. Personally, I don't want Bethesda to impose restrictions or railroad me into a set path. I hate that my iPhone changes [censored] into duck, but is this the kind of automatic censoring that people are asking for?

I love that this game allows you the freedom to unbalance it if you choose. Spend your time making daggers instead of playing? Smithing is buffed. Put all your perks into speech and lock picking? Combat will be very hard. This is a great system that forces you to intact with the game world in such a meaningful way. it makes it realistic and fun.

Didn't read the thread, but it depends on what you call an exploit. What you describe is called gameplay. Might not be typical gameplay, but gameplay none the less. The game was designed so that you can specifically sit there for 30 minutes spamming a spell if you want. But there are consequences.

I voted no.
Because the game is not broken.

If you exploit smithing to get the best armor early on , then complain the game is too easy..... well guess what? you got EXACTLY what you wanted!
You wanted powerfull armor and went out of your way to get it, now you have it and you're upset? WTF?

Its freedom of choice, and the choice is there if you want to do that, i think that's great.

But don't complain because the game gives you a choice and you CHOOSE to be overpowered.

The game isn't broken, you're reasoning is.

So what did you think was gonna happen when you stood there smithing until you could make the most powerful armor in the game?....... Thats right, EXACTLY what does happen....LOL

I tried the Oghma Infinium exploit. Made the game very unrewarding. I love the feeling I get when I gain a level and realize I accomplished something. When everythign is maxed, there is no room for improvement. Everything gets stale. Not that I don't think it is an interesting exploit for those that want a god-character.

Seriously - what is so difficult for some people to comprehend? (about crafting skills)

And again crafting skill leveling is NOT an exploit.

This ^ is an exploit. The Ogma infinium glitch is an exploit.

I hear people talking about railroading with restrictions etc. What the hell does it even have to do with proper leveling of skills? Nothing.
Don't you enjoy effort/reward? Don't you enjoy character development? Don't you want to work for something in order to achieve it?

I do and i can't enjoy this with the current system.
I'm not freaking complaining that my character gets overpowered i'm freaking complaining that i can't enjoy some challenge in leveling a skill, That i can't enjoy the skill and the process of leveling it because i don't even have to work for it.

the elder scrolls i believe have got it right.
Far too many gamers are coming out with crap complaints about levelling/skills. Simples ! If its not for you don't do it. Freedom of choice for me is far more important than having to be forced down a certain path.

We all have freedom of choice because Bethesda have worked damn hard to give us this freedom. Its only as easy or indeed as difficult as you the gamer choose to make it for yourself.

If you haven't figured out how to role play or don't want to role play then go and play call of duty. I am so fed up with seeing these crappy little comments about the fundamental mechanics of what makes Skyrim such a great game

If after taking the exploits route or not. If you feel cheated its because you cheated yourself and the same goes for boredom.

I don't take anything on this forum seriously.

Elder Scrolls games have always been working like that, that is part of the TES gameplay to spam skills to raise them, check wikies you'll see articles specifically talking on how to max your stats and powerplay your skills.
They should not change this gameplay more than they already did in Skyrim because if is part of the TES DNA and if they ever do so i am sure they'll loose truckload of old customers.

Edit : and the wiki quote is flawed because and exploit is as depicted when it gives an edge over another player .... the very title of the wiki says it "Exploit (online gaming)".

Some people confuse freedom of choice with in-game realism and broken mechanics. It's tragic really.

I agree. I do not want imposed restrictions on us all either. I find the game to be very fun, and though i admit it is still new to me, certainly not too easy so far. Besides i like having a well rounded character sometimes and i can use sneak more at first and learn that skill when i am new and weak still without being stuck as a thief the whole game and so i can then eventually become a Battle-Mage if i want, but i do have to work at it. I do not understand why some are saying that it is too easy because they choose to spam a spell etc instead of exploring the vast rich world? All the ES games i have had, i have enjoyed for years, just the exploring and playing from different new character perspectives, never ran out of fun. Every choice i made changed my characters experiences so that no two characters could have been just alike in their experiences even if i had wanted them to! And i do not understand those that say we should be forced to be a pure mage or a pure warrior or a pure anything? If they want that for themselves fine, but why should others be restricted to that? When was it ever like that? Before in previous ES games, u could be an Adventurer and choose to build all your skills as u wanted to as u went along or stick to what u like best, by choice. Is that no longer possible? Am i missing something in their complaints? I am having a lot of fun exploring the Skyrim game world and i am not spamming spells or cornering somebody and killing them over and over either, but the game is not easier than previous ES games is it? i have not thought so.

Its not broken.

Like i said, if you specifically choose to level a skill such as smithing to make the best armor in the game.

Then you get the exact result you're trying to achieve, you now have the best armor in the game.

What other result should there be?

Yeah well I wish Beth had the Mentality of half the posters here who say "no they shouldn't be taken seriously" because of those folks who moaned about their lack of self control or power game and then grip about how "spreadsheety" everything is even thought THEY made their experience got us the mechanics we have now today :thumbsup:

You are right, but I'm afraid that is a separate discussion entirely - Skyrim does, in fact, leave open plenty of room for roleplaying. Yes, I agree that it has been streamlined, and yes, I also think the potential in some aspects has been somewhat diminished, but really - the only real boundaries placed on roleplaying are determined by your own imagination. I do agree, however that the shortcomings have an impact on that, since they provide the framework within which your (or my) imagination does its thing, but in all, as far as I'm concerned the sky (the scope of your imagination) is still the limit.

Skyrim also opens up a lot of possibilities the previous games (in their vanilla state) didn't have. Take Morrowind, for example: you had no hoods, no horses, no children, no cooking on a fire, no crafting on an anvil or a tanner's rack, no placing books on a shelf or weapons on a rack, no sitting on chairs, etc. Mods made all of these possible of course; but all of these are included in vanilla Skyrim - which, as far as I'm concerned, opens up a whole new realm of possibilities which can, and will be further explored through the CK.



I wrote "many of the people" - I never wrote all people.



You are right - in fact this is the very reason why I originally wrote "many of the people" - and not all. I play both MMORPG and TES (started with Morrowind) myself, and I can enjoy the storyline of a hack 'n slash (take Baldur's Gate, for example) just as much as I can enjoy playing efficient from a roleplaying perspective.



That depends on how you would define 'RPG', does it not? While I do share the sentiment, I'll reiterate my previous point: many hack 'n slash or MMORPG games are advertised as 'RPG', something which they aren't quite, if we were to interpret 'roleplaying' in a literal fashion. Roleplaying and backstory might play a role in them (pun not intentional), but it's a secondary role. Primary point is to min/max and become as efficient as possible. Yet, both types of games (hack 'n slash and actual roleplaying-games) are lumped together as two sides of the same coin, and that's what we'll have to make due with.

Keep in mind that some people have never experienced anything other than a hack 'n slash, and actually roleplaying a game can be a whole new experience for them. Prior to Morrowind, I was one of those people, and TES 3 served as a real eye-opener for me.



While I agree, this, again, is another discussion (which is the reason I didn't allude to it in my previous post, as I'd written something very similar to this). What you wrote here is exactly what I meant with "roleplaying doesn't solve' everything, some things are still broken". As such, I agree completely. The game does become somewhat easy with some characters if you're actually playing them efficiently, even from a roleplaying perspective (i.e. no min-maxing). From a roleplaying perspective, I should think any character would strive to be as efficient as possible at what he or she does (and, again, of course keeping in mind the limitations of the actual roleplay). There needs to be a balance between your imagination and the framework in which that imagination can do its magic. While I don't find the game unbalanced, some things do detract from the immersion when you have to go out of your way to avoid them - and, again, I'm not talking about powergaming but actually roleplaying.

There is a lot that can be discussed about that, and whether or not it's the 'point' of the game (to become powerful) - but I don't really want to get too caught up in that. When the CK comes and mods start pouring in, this will become a wholly different game (and experience) entirely. Of course, this doesn't detract from the point that some things could have been implemented better (and balanced better), I just choose not to get too worked up about it since, thankfully, there is the option to expand our gameplay through mods.

You shouldn't have to balance it yourself. It's that simple. Smithing/Enchanting is too powerful, even if you don't powerlevel it.

Some people say - don't use it then!

My response, yeah I won't but it's not the same game when I'm restricting myself. I shouldn't have to plan in order to make the game challenging...
One of the biggest motivators for people in RPGs is the character development - to become better.

To some extend the system must be broken when you have to pass on certain items or skills . Especially when your not planning or maxing.

What some ppl fail to understand is that this is not a multiplayer game where you are competing with other players or you need to be uber powerful to not get ganked everytime by cyber bullies.

Of course there are gamers that want their character to be god like, to OHK even the most powerful creatures. That's ok, you have the tools to achieve that in the game. But if you don't like this prospect then don't use such tools.

It's all about choices:

Do you want a balanced game? Play balanced.
Do you want a challange? Restrict yourself.
Do you want to be uber powerful? Exploit everything.

It's that simple really.

I think its worth hearing about it, as *some* of these exploits are things you naturally expect to be a normal part of the game, except they turn out to be supereffective. I get the impression a lot of ppl found the exploits by trying to do something they thought the game accounted for. Eg they made their own enchanted weapon and it turned out a bit too good.

I prefer to limit myself than become overpowered, so i dont plan on combining crafting, but it'd be even better if i could just do any combination of skills and the game smoothly copes with it.

Tldr - let them say their piece, it may open more fun options for the rest of us if the balance is patched

I could care less.

Thank god there is someone who is able to actually understand what i'm trying to say. Good thing i use a pc (a friend of mine though who got it for the console is somewhat more disappointed)

In a few words - i complain about not being able to cherish, to enjoy, to work for these skills. If i ever complain about the mechanics of the skills it will be about this - no effort/reward = "dead" skill. And that's it because they are too easy and level in a completely flat way.

ooooh my bad.

I hadn't realise vendor sold spells were 'exploits'

Thanks, that clears a lot up.

/picard facepalm

The exploit happens when it can be done faster than that. I honestly think smithing should have a XP system that changed depending on how much ore and material is used, and what type of material and ore is used, instead of giving you the same amount of XP from making a silver ring and a daedric cuirass.

A better fix I think would be to make the potential damage boost from professions be roughly equivalent to the boost from your combat skill, and then base your combat skill xp on damage dealt, corrected for the amount of damage boost that came from your potions/enchantments/smithing upgrades. So you'd get less one handed xp from killing a bandit if you were using +150% one handed damage enchantments than if you were going at it without, meaning you were actually sacrificing combat skill for crafting skill.

As for saying its exploits that break the game, I don't think taking advantage of high level enchanting and smithing skills could really be called an exploit. Dragon Age had exploits - one that comes to mind was a simple quest to make traps for an NPC in exchange for gold and xp, but the quest was glitched and could be completed as many times as you wanted for unlimited xp and gold, an obvious bug that could be exploited. Smithing and enchanting gear on the other hand is just using the skills as the developers intended, but becoming overpowered as a result. If the developers had capped those skills at, say, level 30, but you found some bug that let you level them all the way up past 100, then it'd be an exploit. But its not, they're just overpowered within totally normal skill levels.