Don't ask me! I still think there's much better ways to achieve the same goals.


I think the new mode will be great for those who want it, but for me it's tedium mixed with some things I think would be interesting.

I think there is a misinterpretation about the sleeping bag going around. Here are the relevant parts of the quote that was mined from the game files:

Saving

• Manual and quicksaving are disabled. To save your game, you'll need to find a bed and sleep for at least an hour.

...

Bed Types

• The type of bed you're sleeping in determines the length of time you are able to stay asleep. A sleeping bag will save your game and may help save your life when you're desperate, but it will never allow for a full night's rest and the benefits that come with it.

"You'll need to find a bed" doesn't imply to me that I can be carrying a bed with me. The sleeping bag mentioned in Bed Types is already in the game, but it isn't something we can carry around. nowhere does it say that we can carry a bedroll.

I'd like to know more about he proposed saving system. Are Autosaves disabled too? Are we restricted to a single save slot that gets over-written with each sleep, or do we end up with a fresh save for each sleep? Multiple save files would at least address the occasional need to go back to an earlier save in the case of save file corruption.

I'm not really worried about dying or crashing--neither have happened very often in my game so far. I am concerned about the annoyance factor of not being able to save and quit whenever I need to. Aside from that, the fact that sleep is required as a part of the fatigue/wellness system means that you'll have a sleep save at least every real-time hour or two, considering the speed of the in-game day/night cycle.

I do agree with the earlier posts pointing out how this system can be a little immersion-breaking or meta-gamey, in that my character will be constantly looking for places to take a quick nap after an hour of scavenging or after finding a nice bit of loot, or before heading into a potentially dangerous situation. "Hmm, that place looks a bit dicey--hold on a sec, Piper, I'm just going to have a little lie-down first."

Maybe Bethesda Game Studios didn't want to out right say it to keep it a surprise?

I mentioned my only reason for the "No" answer and I'll say it again just in case developers read these threads:

By removing the save feature on a game whose engine is as old as Oblivion (both the game and time), the risks to game freezes aren't worth it. It's a phenomenal idea but not for Bethesda's game engine. It's just too unstable and outdated.

A proper poll would have asked if 'rolling back to sleep save on death but allowing quick/auto saves' would work. The poll appears to be against death penalties, when in reality death penalty is something many survival players want and the no votes are like you - not wanting to deal with game and time issues preventing you from playing the game because you cannot save anytime. You should only lose progress if you die, not because of the bugs or your real world life.

Well, you can once you find the Institute. That teleporter is fast travel. Unless they add a cool down period to it. Which might actually work, must wait 12 in-game hours between uses. I could get behind that. But then again, fast travel's not he point of this thread. Sorry about that.

The toggling concept does make me wonder, how would the go about implementing survival mode? Would it be handled the way difficulty is now where you just adjust it under options? Anything else might require a ton of changes to the core game itself wouldn't it?

if whats said is true, i suppose it would take up some of your carry capacity.


I'm still not convinced that beds only really means much, though. Like, in reg mode save wherever. Survival mode, spend 2 minutes and still basically save everywhere.

I'm glad some people are on the same page as me.

No manual or quick saves is going to be hell on my gaming due to random CTD that can happen at any time.

And from what I am gathering, people sure have some messed up logic...

Example some of you view this as just fine and acceptable. Claiming Auto or manual saves break immersion. Yet you seem fine with the idea of carrying around a portable bed? Really? "Hmm I'm about to attack these raiders so maybe I'll just lay out a bedroll and take a quick 1 hour nap."

Yeah like that isn't immersion breaking.

I am looking forward to this new mode. Its not about just switching to another difficulty. its about playing this mode. But if its going to have no auto saves or manual saves. or even fast travel... I'll look forward to someone making a mod patch to get this right.

do whatever you want i have saved and loaded in the console since fallout 3

You can only sleep when there aren't enemies around so quick saving during dialogue or fights won't be possible anymore. At least I would assume that would be the point, but I don't really know.

That pretty much sum up this discussion. In the end, someone will come up with the 'just right' version of this mode (I'm thinking similar to Skyrim mods Frostfall + Campfire + iNeed). Until then, if BGS implements the save on sleep mechanic, it will be patched out a within few hours after release.

Huh. Maybe I was reading that wrong, then.

yes, grow some or go home

Again if they implement it as 'rollback to bed save on death' then they can implement quick/auto saves, you would just lose progress on death but not on a CTD or having to take the dog for a walk. I would rather trust Bethesda to implement the save rollback properly, I do not trust mods with save files.

While their goal of death penalty of loosing progress back to last sleep most certainly fits survival, doing it by limiting saves does not fit their game which indeed is buggy and takes longer play sessions than people have. Implementing it instead as a rollback so that it is a limited death reload keeps the death penalty and fixes any bug/time issues you have with the feature.

The new Survival Mode looks awesome but the save only by finding a bed and sleeping is a bit harsh and does not really seem survival related. I think it will add frustration having to start over from the time one last slept.

On the pro side for it this will add even more importance to sleeping alongside healing and needing to rest. So if it happens no big deal and I might just be needlessly worrying about nothing due to the supposed bit of control it takes away of saving at any time. The lack of saving at any time can give a sense of enhanced danger and realism where just like in life many things are not in ones control except ones actions.

For the sleeping part, you are not going to take 6 or 10 one hour power naps in a day in creepy, not all cleared locations, just because you found a bed. Our Sole Survivors are never going to get anything done if we are sleeping all the time! I always make my characters sleep at least once a day, like most people do. Maybe a 2nd time if there was a grueling battle where you got crippled. But sleeping more times then that in one day just doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective.

Well, if you want to get really interpretive, we don't see ourselves crawling into and out of bed for a quick nap. Could be we're taking a chance to sit down and collect ourselves, take a breather before heading out again instead of essentially going on a day-long rampage through downtown Boston. Admittedly, this argument falls apart with some of the Lovers' Embrace commentary, but not too much to convince me we're always sleeping (or banging >.>) every time.

Well i rarely can get my character laid since I don't put much into Charisma lol so this might be a problem for me.

8+ separate hour-long breathers in one day is still pretty excessive.

Always agree with your posts on these subjects. I miss the days where the new vegas forums were busy. Seems to be a lot more bashing on opinions and complaints on the FO4 threads

Loving all the changes that are coming with the survivor mode overhaul. just not the disabling of saves. Agree 100% on the bugs and freezes/crashes. Now having a sleeping bag is interesting..but are we actually going to be able to see it on the back of our character? I think it would be silly if we couldn't see it. But having it equipped could actually be kinda cool.

Like I said in the last thread I'm for it. Dealing with hardships is the exact point of survivor/hardcoe in the first place. Plus for the people that don't like it because of crashes or whatever else, they are going to keep releasing patches so the game isgoing to get more and more stable.

So to reiterate from last thread (since I've had to delete a couple of posts,)

Most members participating in this thread are trying to have a mature and reasonable conversation despite differences of opinions. We do need to remember to respect that not everyone is going to agree with you, and not everyone wants the same things when it comes to a game mode that is supposed to be challenging and engaging. Calling people "children" is not conducive to a mature and meaningful conversation on this topic. Making derogatory comments or being dismissive of those who don't agree with you isn't going to win you any points, either, and it's that sort of snarky and inflammatory kinds of posts that will poison a thread and lead to it being locked.

Anyway, to add some constructive criticism to this:

I just don't think linking saving to sleeping is the "hardcoe" or appropriate mechanic for this sort of game. Just because one method may add "challenge" to the game (which I doubt this actually does,) doesn't mean there might not be more appropriate or interesting ways to attempt to achieve that same goal. Not everyone who isn't a fan of this feature wants less challenge, quite the opposite in fact.

If I had my druthers, I think it would be more appropriate to have something more like a "respawn" system in place instead of the game over screen when you die in the game. Maybe if when you die, instead of having to reload the game from a previous point you simply respawned at the last point you slept somewhere for an hour or more. A more Ironman-styled approach to saving (where you have one save file that is over-written each time, and where you don't have reload functionality - you can only progress forward in the game, no reloading to make different decisions,) would mean that you could apply interesting penalties and debuffs to dying.

Just for starters, it's not a new concept to lose your gear (either partially or entirely) when you "die." So when you reach 0 HP, you hover at death's door and (however the game decides to rationalize this) either your companion or a good samaritan or something pulls you back to safety, but not before scavengers or your opponents steal your best gear. So now, instead of reloading to before you die and doing the same combat again - you have to go back to where you died and now those Raiders that killed you are using your cool Legendary Plasma Rifle against you, and are wearing your Power Armor to boot.

If I sleep, then have a long involved conversation with Nick Valentine or something, then get into a fight and die - then that conversation still took place and I don't have to go back and run through the same dialog again. I can't go backwards in the game, only forward, and have to make do with the consequences of my failure. The fail state then actually modifies my gameplay experience and changes my approach more drastically and in an organic and impactful manner.

Heck, you could even have various debuffs or status effects as a result of dying. Maybe you come back with a crippled limb, scars, or a random ailment of some sort.

Anyway, I just feel that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and I think it's important to realize that not everyone who dislikes this current approach as it's planned out (they're still working on this mode, nothing's set in stone yet) is looking for an easier game, necessarily. But difficult doesn't have to mean tedious - there's plenty of ways to add interesting difficulty that is engaging as well as tension-building without having to add more tedium to the mix. And my suggestion is just but one of many, many possible routes towards the same goal.

Thank you. It absolutely astounds me that so many people are regarding a desire for a choice with such a smug, superior, and condescending attitude. It's unnecessary. I'm not less of a gamer because I don't want to lose an hour of progress because of a game crashing.

Some other points I've been thinking of - I do a ton of settlement building. I think anyone that does a lot of settlement building has likely figured out by now that saving frequently while building is a good idea. If I'm building something and the build starts going in a direction that I don't like, I might want to reload my last save to undo my last 5 minutes of work instead of scrapping it all. If I scrap it, I'm losing resources. If I reload the save, I'm getting them back. As far as immersion is concerned, I don't need it in this aspect. I'm the kind of person that builds an 8 story fortress that takes up half of the landmass of Spectacle Island. I'm not going this for game immersion...I'm doing it because I enjoy the settlement building.

Currently, I quicksave about every 5 minutes when I'm building. With sleep-saves only, I'd have to go to a bed and sleep to save. This may be a minor inconvenience, but having to leave the area where I'm working to go to a bed and sleep for an hour every time I want to save is going to add up. Sometimes I fire FO4 up just to work on some settlements for a few hours. Not to do quests or explore...just to build. On Spectacle Island, I have a huge central fortress area, which is where most of my building is being done. I have a big bunk house to the side, and if I'm working on my fortress it takes a couple minutes to get there. This is a minor inconvenience, yes. But make that 2 minute walk 15 times, and I've just spent half an hour saving my game out of the 3 hours I've been playing. That's not inconveniencing my character or making the game more survival oriented. It's inconveniencing ME as a player.

^ This 100% if you want to be a survivor in the wasteland of a apocalyptic Earth you must endure all the hardships of life.

No saves only while you sleep is going to make it challenging, which is a very good thing.

Can't wait to slog through a couple of hours of exploring and fighting epic 20 minute battles against supermutants, ghouls, raiders and gunners, to finally pick up a Legendary Explosive Minigun, and frantically look for a bed and then... game crash. Lulz.