Seeing as it appears to be a confirmed aspect of Survival mode... Suppose my semi-planned Wasteland Fry Cook character will have to join the Institute for fast travels and easy access beds.

I voted no due to technical issues with this game. I have too many crashes, black screens, infinite loading screens and game freeze ups for this "Sleep only save" feature. I really don't feel like having too back track this often because i wasn't near a bed to save.

I'm playing on Xbox One. Countless times I've had the game crash. And I've lost countless save files due to corruption.

Save corruption has happened (so far only) with my highest level characters. I've been spared too much progress lost because I always, always, always keep multiple saves.

It is a thing, save file corruption. I'm happy it hasn't happened to you (truly, I am). But it *has* happened to me. And I can't handle the thought of losing so much progress because of something that is out of my control. If I sleep, then I roam for 24 in-game hours, then just before sleeping again the game crashes AND my last save is corrupted and I wasn't able to create multiples (i.e.: quick save)? That's two full in-game days of progress lost to Bethesda Bull-*&%. No. Thank. You.

So if it is revised so that the game only rolls back to bed saves on death you do not have a problem since quick saving for game/life issues would still work?

I think you're both right.

Or at least set it up so that you can turn saving on or off from the difficulty menu. Really a piecemeal survival system would be both unrealistic and AMAZING. Unrealistic because it would probably take a lot longer to code, but amazing because it would allow players to have the experience they want.

I do think that saving only at beds, or turning off fast travel. These options don't add anything new to the game or to the experience. Because they're already there. If you want that playthrough, then don't use those tools. How would that be any different than going into "Options" and turning the difficulty back to normal temporarily so you can save or fast travel, then turning "survival" back on afterwards? The game's not really setup to lock you out of one mode for a character. Look at how New Vegas handled it.

These are options that are removing something from the game in order to make it more challenging, rather than adding features. And I really hate it when features are removed. It just reminds me of what should be there but isn't any more.

It's like the settlements. If you didn't like them then you can just ignore them. Sure it's not easy, but you can still do it. But for everyone else who liked them, removing them or making them more painful to use just takes away from our experience. Without fast travel, why even try to settle Murkwater construction at that point?

If you take away one system, you need to add another to make up for the loss in terms of functionality.

Look at Skyrim. Why does a "no fast travel playthrough" work? Because of the carts. You can travel via cart to any city and then travel from there. Fallout 4 has nothing of the sort. Sure, when you get vertibird access via the BoS that brings back fast travel in a painfully slow way, but then logically, once you get teleportation, fast travel should be back.

So here's my solution to that issue: Make the provisioners your cart system. A provisioner can take you to the settlement on the other end of his/her route. Or maybe you can just fast travel to settlements connected to your trade network. Bam. Solution that does not take away that feature early on in the game. Except it does if you don't play a charisma 6 character. Not perfect and yet it still diminishes fast travel without fixing the issue.

So why not treat saving the same way. How can the problems some folks have with being able to save anywhere be solved WITHOUT removing saving? Lets say that bed-saving is off the table. What's your alternate solution? And I don't mean this in a [censored] sort of way so if you don't have an answer I can go "ha ha" and feel superior or anything. I legitimately would like to know what ideas people have for this. Even if they don't show up in survival mode they might make for some fantastic mod ideas.

Lets brainstorm this svcker.

That's an idea. Not dissimilar to how Dying Light has it setup. But then the trick around it would just be to quickload right before you're about to die, and to setup a system where the game actually deleted any saves you made between the last sleep save and your death.

Interesting, but also really worrying. I don't know how I'd feel about letting this engine delete my saves automatically. And easily beatable by copy/pasting saves from the game folder on the PC version. But then again. Why try to stop players from doing that if they want to do it that way? It's not like this is a multiplayer game where scores and saves are considered sacred and untouchable.

How about this; turn off saving near enemies? You can't fast travel near enemies now right? So why not just do that to saving as well?

Easy for Bethesda to do because they already have a system that deletes old autosaves so deleting files is not the issue, all they would need to do is add a flag to saves indicating it was made in a bed. Saving shortly before imminent death accomplishes nothing because you cannot reload it if you die, that save gets wiped. But you can at least exit the game and save the tough fight for another day.

There is nothing new or novel about this idea, a lot of permadeath dungeon crawling roguelikes allow players to save anytime they just prohibit save scumming by limiting reloads instead of limiting saves.

If people are so desperate to save they would always changing difficulty back to very hard, then back to Survival

Not to mention power failures. What happens if the power goes out after you've gotten several hours, in-game, of stuff done, and the last time you saved was the last time you slept? There goes all of your progress, right out the window! While I do not use HC or Survival mode myself, I can see a litany of problems cropping up with this.

That wouldn't work because people would just reload the quick/perm save they made after they made a sleep save. You die, game loads up sleep save you made 6 hours ago, you load up your quick save you made five minutes ago. What would work is if they added a sleeping bag you could take with you everywhere and make it so that an area has to be clear of danger before you can plop it down...

In a normal story mode run sleeping save would probably work well. There are beds everywhere if you took that route. However, for a really long exploratory type playthrough the sleep method would be hellish.

So I guess this is all moot with the Sleeping Bag item? Or still not good enough?

I actually am thrilled it enables me to sleep at almost any time, but keeps me from involuntarily save-scumming my way through combat and conversations.

Unless they make survival mode a separate thing from easy and normal mode that I find highly unlikely because so many people have put a lot of hours into the game. all you need to do to save your game at any time you want is to switch from survival mode back to normal mode then save your game.


After reloading the save go to settings and change back to survival mode again.

That's the one feature they've mentioned that I don't like. Not because I'm against the idea or anything, but because the game crashes too often for me to have the patience for a feature like that. If I could trust the thing to not freeze up on me, I'd be okay with the idea.


That said, it's already attainable in the game. Saving ain't exactly something you have to do. Hell, I think you can even set it to save when you sleep, meaning that you can create something identical without denying players the ability to save while enjoying all the other, more awesome features of survival mode.

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I went through a lot more issues than just CTD in my post.

Join the Survival Mode beta on Steam and provide your feedback of the Crashes to Desktop (CTD's) you get where and why.

If you don't have the PC version of Fallout 4 on PC you are still in luck because there are PC gamers that are going to do that.

Maybe Bethesda Game Studios will fix as many Crashes to Desktop (CTD's) as they can.

I know you did.

Here's to hoping though that Bethesda Game Studios fixes as many of the Crashes to Desktop (CTD's) as they can that are reported for whatever reason.

I got the distinct impression it's not survival difficulty it's an actual mode from the main menu.

Except they won't fix these issues because it can't be done. They can only minimize the frequency of them. The reason the game crashes is well the content in the game and the engine sometimes won't be able to handle it some times. It's like crashes on the PC giving you the infamous Blue Screen of Death. There's isn't really a known fix it just happens if an application stops responding.

The no saving unless at a bed thing is simply not going to work for fallout 4. You can set this rule onto yourself which is fine but to strip away a feature that was present since launch only to appeal to some crazy fans wanting a suicide mode is simply nuts. There is other people out there that want to try the mode and stripping a feature like this won't help.

Everything else they said is good however. One thing i hope bethesda adds in the dlcs is new perks, one being the perk from new vegas that cuts weapons weight in half if they're over 10lbs and your strength isn't super high

only saving while you sleep is a pretty idiotic idea , absolute no rpg element at all

while i am confident that there will be mods that disable this funtion within a few hours bethesda implements this i feel sorry for the console users that will going to loose hours of gameplay because of this

now that iread the list i am dissapointed i in my opinion every feature should be optional and available for every difficulty setting with the survival setting all features turned on

the modding community would have done a better job than this mess

Community: "Bethesda svcks, their games depend on the modding community to make into real RPGs"

Bethesda: "Hey guys, we're going to add a ton of new features based on popular requests from the community, we hope you like it"

Community: "Bethesda svcks, why did they waste their time on features that the modding community could have just done 1000x better?"

Food/drink/sleep can increase difficulty. FNV's hardcoe mode was more of a tacked on feature, meaning they didn't create the game around that difficulty. Adding F/D/S in the current F4 is also pointless, if they don't change the spawn rates. I would like a different/better survival mode for F4 and i agree that FNV's hardcoe mode wouldn't translate well into F4.

Not sure if you noticed, but every gun (not sure about heavy guns) has a light weight mod that cuts the weight of the weapon in half. Again, if you want to make a good survival mode you have to balance a lot of things. Also if you think about it from a logical perspective, the extra weight of the minigun can be offset by power armor and power armor mods. As far as i know PA givers extra carrying capacity just if you wear it. Well isn't this the whole point of survival? so you can't carry 100 nukes, 1000 50. cal and 50 cement bags? Yes you will have to play differently. Some perks that were useless, will be useful now. As far as fast travel, i don't use it since F3, so for me it's not a problem.

Balance is subjective. For some "medium" difficulty is hard and for some survival is easy. Some player won't play this new survival mode, and some will probably demand an ever harder one. Not sure what are you trying to say in the last sentence. I think that F4 is really easy to understand. Survival mode will be explained, but you can't expect every single detail to be logged. Who said that stacking wounding legendary effect works as intended? Maybe it's a bug? Those things you mentioned are really irrelevant.

I'm not a programmer, but is it really that hard for Beth to make features togglable?

Seeing this exact thing every where I look as well. Really disappointed in a lot of people in the community... I can not say what I really want... Because Censor stuff... But a bunch of little whiny little girls... Just let them have it come out. You do not have to have it for a mode...

I personally am looking at it as a Diablo Hard Core mode.

Is it deleting autosaves, or is it just overwriting the autosave slots as it goes along? It seems like either would be really tricky because you'd be talking about a system that modified how the engine worked and not just the game world.

I don't know about you. But when I lose a tone of data/work like that in a game because I was stupid and forgot to save, or the power crapped out on me before I saved, it really disheartens me. It's a kick in the gut that has me not wanting to play that game for a while because all I see is the amount of re-treading I'll have to do. Often times I end up quitting and then coming back later. It's not that I haven't already been in that area and done those quests before with other characters. It's that I don't want to retread the exact same steps with the exact same enemies and the exact same possible results so soon.

No idea. It could be nearly impossible depending on how the engine's setup, or it could be really easy. It all depends on how survival mode would be implemented.

I think that really depends on how you're looking at this.

What I see is a large group of people who are avid fans of Fallout 4 and who genuinely enjoy the product that Bethesda put so much time into. These are fans who in some cases are very disappointed in certain aspects of the game to be sure, but who still enjoy it for what it is. And with the option of Survival Mode being presented, it's sparked a debate about what it is that WE fans actually want.

For many the lack of a 24 hour blog (to be mildly absurdist) about what the Bethesda team's working on is frustrating. They don't know which bugs are being worked on, or what's being done. No one's come out and said "this team's working on bugs, while this separate team is working on DLC" to calm their fears ans assure them that someone is fixing what, to them, are game breaking bugs. Meanwhile some people are fine with how the Bethesda team's currently handling the issues with the game. Many see modders and modding tools as the way that the modding community can go about fixing the bugs that actually matter to them. For instance, I never cared that you couldn't dismember bodies in vault 81, I'm more worried about Tina de Luca not working properly. So I was annoyed and confused when they patched the dismemberment issue. I don't know why it was chosen because they didn't say. But maybe it was because someone looked at it and thought that it it mas more important to fix something in the core game that my be a symptom of something a lot worse, then just fixing a quest issue. So I really want modding tools to come out so that either I or someone else can finally just fix Tina de Luca. It's not important to everyone, but it's important to me.

Here though, a lot of people want saving downplayed to increase the difficulty of the experience. A lot of people really don't want those tools lost and instead want that increase in difficulty to come from somewhere else.

A key thing to remember though is that this won't be anywhere close to Diablo's hardcoe mode because this isn't Diablo. Fallout 4 doesn't play like Diablo, or Dark Souls, or XCOM. So the problems and solutions it faces to create a survival mode that's appropriate to it will be unique to Fallout 4. Maybe it will be restricting saving and fast travel, maybe it will be something else. But Fallout 4 will never be S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Metro or any of those games. And personally I don't think it should.