Should the game have a different ending? : V - Skyrim

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:35 pm

Then you are aware a good characterisation is dependent on decisions and consequences. It's also what makes roleplaying so rewarding. Having a singular ending means taking away possible decisions from players and thus hurt the characterisation of their own character. If they choose to align themselves with the dragon for instance it would show a lot about the personality of the character they're playing. And declaring the wrong endings "non-canon" would solve all the problems for the lore-enthusiasts. It's a neat compromise.

Also, I can name a few games with superb multiple endings:
KotoR 1, the Witcher, Mass Effect 2, Neverwinter Nights 2: mask of the betrayer

Those games are fine and dandy, however they do not encompass the massive open-world nature of TES games, none of these games come close to how massive TES games are in depth, virtual scale and size and all the other factors. Multiple endings in these games would have relatively little effect on the rest of the game, but considering that the majority of a TES game usually takes place after the main quest is over, the multiple ending factor is something that can lead to a much bigger problem because all these games are much more linear than TES games to begin with.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:33 am

Well, of course, not every ending is possible in a TES game. After all, the game continues after the main quest. But you could still offer a few alternatives to the "I'm the most heroic guy in the world"-ending. That's where skill and cleverness comes into it. I'm positive bethesda is capable of pulling it off.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:00 pm

I'm going to re-iterate his point because you obviously don't understand what he is trying to say.

This is basically what he is saying:

Multiple small differences in middle of main story/quest --> Some minor differences in end which wouldn't effect a lot of people + one basic ending that stands for every different 'ending'

There could be minor impacts to things such as race, or preferred class, or quests taken that may make the middle of the quest-line different, you may do different quests or there might be differences in how different NPC's react to you, or which factions support you in your endeavors, but in the end it will still be the same ending. Lets take your example of playing an 'evil' character (which form the very start is flawed considering that a character cannot be evil and would in reality simply be working for what they perceive as the greater good, but nevertheless I will address it) lets say that your character is so 'evil' that he wants to join Mehrunes Dagon and the Mythic Dawn in destroying the world. As game developers, Todd and the rest of the guys will have a problem, which I will illustrate through the following made-up conversation:

Developer 1: Hey I have a great idea, lets make it so that the player can join the Mythic Dawn and help destroy the world!
Developer 2: I like the idea, but if we let the player destroy the world, how would we explain that the world still exists in the next game?

Now the developers could go in a number of different directions from here, check the spoiler tags to see the different outcomes of their future decisions...

Spoiler

Decision 1:

Developer 1: Lets just say that only one of these endings is canon and ignore the other endings!
1 week after game release the forums, post, email and every other line of communication is spammed with the same message, you can't simply make different endings and ignore them. This is due to the very lore-strong presence in the TES community and it has been something that has distinguished TES games since Morrowind. As long as people think of this TES game one of the things that come to their mind was how they disliked how they ignored the variety of endings and used a quick-fix (Dragon Break), much like Daggerfall.

Spoiler

Decision 2:

Developer 1: Well we could simply scrap the idea!
This is the safest decision, nothing was changed from previous TES games so it is relatively safe. There was little to no impact of this decision on the mass fan-base as a whole.

Spoiler

Decision 3:

Developer 1: Well what if after the evil player helps Mehrunes, we bring it back to the original ending somehow, so there would be one canon ending to help continue the series!
Developer 2: So there would be different middles to the game, but only one real ending?
Developer 1: Exactly!
This is what me and most of the people saying no have been trying to say, this is a safe ending and will succeed in two things; one, it will allow the player to go through different paths so that their freedom is not limited, two, it will leave a single real ending with one actual outcome to the whole story. One of the biggest problems with this and the reason that people are still against this is that it takes a lot of actual work, its nice saying that we want this and we want that, but in the end there is someone who has to do all these things we ask before they actual become real, meaning we need to carefully consider whether these ideas are realistic or not.

Now a small personal response from me:

I noticed that somewhere you inquired to what canon means, canon refers to what is accepted as lore-correct, a good example of problems with canon is the Star Wars series, where there are so many conflicting stories, books, games etc. that Lucas has to step in and say "Look, this is right, this is wrong, if you don't like it then deal with it." Which is a blunt and rather distasteful way to fix the problem.

@ Alex Man 142

Would you say that it is unfair that life forces you to breathe, drink water, sleep and eat and that it is shoving these things down your throat? Sometimes there is an inevitable that must be done, if the world is going to be destroyed by dragons there are only two real options, fight or run. Its not about them forcing you to do something, its about what would be possible and what would make sense.

That is a safe way to do things and I agree, giving the option of choice is good like in Morrowind where you could ask to join Dagoth Ur, but you couldn't because that would go against everything that the player character was, regardless of their actions within the game.

@ Jimis

You seem to be completely sure of what an RPG is, however I have yet to see how you would. An RPG is a role-playing game, it could be linear or it could be done sand-box style, it can force you down a certain path and it can open you up to various decisions, but rarely, no, never have I seen a game which allows for complete freedom in all of its decisions. Show me a game like this and I will submit to it being possible, however until then your idea is flawed in that it is simply not possible.

EDIT:

Lets not turn this thread into a language debate please, though I should note that when posting it was sometimes difficult to understand what you were trying to say Jimis, re-reading your posts and trying to help clarify them before-hand can go a long way in helping others understand you.

Spare me please, go write a book or something, my question is pretty simple there is no reason to anolyze things so much, i m just saying if they can make it really good so everything suits well, you will like it? please answer this simple question, otherwise leave it, its cool
(and i m sorry about my english, is not my native language, but i believe my point is simple)

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:11 pm

Well, of course, not every ending is possible in a TES game. After all, the game continues after the main quest. But you could still offer a few alternatives to the "I'm the most heroic guy in the world"-ending. That's where skill and cleverness comes into it. I'm positive bethesda is capable of pulling it off.

On this I agree, however as Tech ology x stated, sometimes the story would force you to behave or act towards a certain goal, whether that be the defeat of the dragons or driving back Mehrunes' forces, one final act must be achieved that can carry or to other games, kind of like being able to say that "The Champion of Cyrodiil drove back Mehrunes' forces into Oblivion." Or "The Nerevarine destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan" These statements cannot be debated, the morality and actions of said characters is still up in the air for the player's on decisions, however there is still one thing that these characters are known for.

my question is pretty simple there is no reason to anolyze things so much, i m just saying if they can make it really good so everything suits well, you will like it?

Yes I will like it, however I am concerned as to whether or not this is possible resource and time wise, and whether or not there will be one final ending or not, as explained in the first part of this post.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:59 pm

Firstly, it depends on what the ending is.

If the ending is that you fight the "boss" of all dragons, for instance...
then it should have only one engine (you win).
It shouldn't be possible, in that situation, that you fail and the dragons win. Because then, who would wanna play a game where the dragons "destroy" all the cities... it would totally ruin things.
Might be a bad example, but I think you get the point.

I'm absolutely fine with one ending.
If there's more than one, okay, I'm fine with that too, but they should be implemented very well. What should be considered the most is how much time and effort that is required by the developers to accomplish such a thing.
If it doesn't take too long or is too hard, then sure. But only, as I mentioned before, if they are implemented really well and no matter what choice you take, you feel that it's the right one and makes sense for you.

I voted no in this poll in any case, since I wouldn't want the developers to waste time on it. I would prefer them to focus on one ending, make it really really good, instead of making several endings sloppy.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:18 am

Different ending based on class.... No

It shouldn't matter if I killed the Dragon with a sword, spell or by pick pocketing his life source all that should matter in the end was that I killed the dragon and the world was saved.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see mutiple endings

let me explain

In S.T.A.L.K.E.R Call of Pripyat (CoP) just like in the fallout games they use slides to convey to the player their ending and there is one true MAIN QUESTending (except for New Vegas) however there is the other no that doesn't happen, you the player have failed the MAIN QUEST ending

Spoiler

In CoP the true ending is getting Strelok out of the zone alive and he goes off to found a school to educate people about the zone. On the flip side (the bad ending) he dies in the final push to the extraction point.
Just like in FO1 the true Main quest ending is saving the inhabitants of the wasteland from the Master's armies, however there is the false main quest ending of joining the master's army

That is how I want Skyrim to be One true MQ ending and a you screwed up, go back and do it again ending

However the variation in endings I want is in the SIDE QUEST slides, something iirc TES hasn't had at all (the including of these slides that is)
for example

Spoiler

In CoP there is a man named zulu he leads you through the Pripyat underground and when you arrive he goes off by himself. Now if you find him and save him from Snorks the ending you get for his SIDE QUEST is that he lives leads other men on patrols deeper in the zone and is awarded a medal for bravery. However if you fail his SIDE QUEST the ending you get for it can be quite different the one most common is that he is commended for dying in battle and awarded a different medal

That is how I want Skyrim's endings to differ. Just have Beth select quests that have mutiple paths and change that quests slide depending on the final outcome. I believe after their experience with FO3 they just might do this

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:41 am

Sigh.

This is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. I want more than one ending because it adds depth. I don't want to be forced to do something I don't want to do.

What if I wanted to help the Mythic Dawn? I can't. What if I want to help Dagoth Ur? I can't. It would be very easy to add a second ending.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:42 pm

Sigh.

This is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. I want more than one ending because it adds depth. I don't want to be forced to do something I don't want to do.

What if I wanted to help the Mythic Dawn? I can't. What if I want to help Dagoth Ur? I can't. It would be very easy to add a second ending.

The Champion of Cyrodiil (main oblivion character) was there to stop the Mythic Dawn, not help them. A role-playing game does not mean complete and total freedom, some games give you that, but not all RPG's do. TES already gives you a lot more than the accepted standard of freedom in an RPG, but like I and Tech said, there are some things that you simply cannot dispute in a game. TES IV: Oblivion is the Elder Scroll telling the story of how the Champion of Cyrodiil drove back the forces of oblivion, this is indisputable, therefore you cannot help the Mythic Dawn or you would be going against the whole point of the game! TES III: Morrowind is the Elder Scroll telling the story of how the true Nerevarine finally appeared and stopped Dagoth Ur in Red Mountain, this is indisputable, and even when you could ask Dagoth to join him, he simply responded telling you that it couldn't happen, because it would go against the wholepoint of the game!

You can't simply wake-up one morning and decide that you are going to completely change your identity, the same is true for these games. The main characters of these games have basic ideas and basic goals, the developers give you a choice on what race these characters are, how they live in their region, what they do, how they act etc. but there are some details such as having to stop the Oblivion Invasion that you can't go against.

EDIT: "It would be very easy to add a second ending." Are you serious :mellow: , do you have any idea the amount of work that would have to be done to make one quest, let alone a new ending? You are talking about not just a couple of lines in the end, but a plethora of voice-acting for all your actions and how people will react and talk to you, new story-writing for the situations leading up to the ending so it would make sense logically and lore-wise, a tonne of scripting so that computers don't blow up when they try running the game and a dozen other things. I'm sorry, but to say that it would be very easy to add a second ending is the biggest understatement in this entire thread IMHO.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:16 am

Yeah, just have a canon ending though so we don't have anothernwarp in the west.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:56 pm

I think the game should have one resolution to the major storyline, but that resolution could have different results for your character. The majority of Elder Scrolls games have linear major plot lines with single resolutions because of the nature of the series. Daggerfall had multiple potential resolutions, which was awesome, but also awkward when it came to the sequel. So it is better to have the story end one way.

The fate of your characters is never revealed in the sequels (although there are rumors addressing them), so having different outcomes for your character, on a more personal level, are entirely possible, and I think could be enjoyable. Having your choices in various main and side quests impact you some way throughout the story can be very immersive. I love seeing the consequences of my actions reflected in game play, in some manner. I'd like to see the world change to reflect your actions post-main storyline somewhat. And those changes could be based on your actions throughout the game.

This allows for the one Canon ending, while still giving you the ability to have a personal impact on the game.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:35 pm

Sigh.

This is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. I want more than one ending because it adds depth. I don't want to be forced to do something I don't want to do.

What if I wanted to help the Mythic Dawn? I can't. What if I want to help Dagoth Ur? I can't. It would be very easy to add a second ending.

Except that, problematically, these games do not end. Let's say you help Dagoth Ur, what then? Wanna do the House Redoran quests that you left undone before the MQ? Tough [censored], because they are all gone. I would rather have one great end to the MQ that will preserve the open nature of my options afterword. Now if TES games actually did end then I would love to see multiple endings, with drastic differences, but this is not, and should not be, the case.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:27 pm

I just got reminded of something I read.
Heroes are linked to the Elder scrolls themselves.

Thus lore wise there could be only one ending, right?
Just throwing it out there.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:47 am

I just got reminded of something I read.
Heroes are linked to the Elder scrolls themselves.

Thus lore wise there could be only one ending, right?
Just throwing it out there.

That is correct, and is what I was trying to explain in my previous post.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:48 pm

That is correct, and is what I was trying to explain in my previous post.

Ah, I had not read it yet.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:23 am

different character, different ending, what you choose has a total impact on the game, of course i m talking about the ending of the main mission the quests and the game in general - I vote for yes
For those who dont like it, i would love to see what they know about the new technology of the game, because for me this can only be good
let me clarify something, the poll is about yes or no, its not about if you care or not, and its not about the technology alright? lets put aside the technology and say they can do it, you like it or not? straight and simple
(Its really funny to see what is happening here, when i pay for something i expect it to have it all or as many things possible)

It would be interesting,but I don't think Bethesda will have multiple endings, because the lore has to go one way.

Traditionally, The Elder Scrolls goes on in chronological order. In Morrowind, we played as the Nerevarine. In Oblivion, the savior of Cyrodiil. If we were allowed to do something other than fulfill the Nerevarine prophecies or close the Oblivion gates, the lore for TES V would have to be different.

I don't think we should have significantly different endings, maybe slight twists, but nothing massively diverse. I don't want the lore on this game to get all sick and twisted, Bethesda has done a pretty decent job at keeping the lore correct, and I don't want to see them break that streak because of different endings.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:06 pm

I want just TWO endings.

Oblivion should have had two endings.

1. The "save the world and everyone is happy!" ending.

2. The "serve Dagon and destroy the world."

The aftermath would be the same, but with different things happening.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:52 pm

I have removed a couple of posts that have more to do with language, spelling and grammar than this topic. Please don't do that as it's against the rules of this form.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:53 pm

On this I agree, however as Tech ology x stated, sometimes the story would force you to behave or act towards a certain goal, whether that be the defeat of the dragons or driving back Mehrunes' forces, one final act must be achieved that can carry or to other games, kind of like being able to say that "The Champion of Cyrodiil drove back Mehrunes' forces into Oblivion." Or "The Nerevarine destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan" These statements cannot be debated, the morality and actions of said characters is still up in the air for the player's on decisions, however there is still one thing that these characters are known for.

True. After all the game continues after the main quest and the designers can't design two different skyrims (depending on the outcome). That would be too much work.
What I'm thinking is an ending similar to that of the witcher. Whether you aligned yourself to the humans or the elves and dwarves did matter - people lived and died based on your decisions, which is very good roleplaying. But the evil overlord (forgot his name) was slain and the main problem removed.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:24 pm

Yeah, just have a canon ending though so we don't have anothernwarp in the west.

Exactly. A warp in the North? I would not be happy with that. I think that there should be many ways to get to one ending. The ending should not be good wins vs evil but instead it should be Men and Mer against Dragons. The Dragons are not evil. They are your enemy no matter what and they want to kill you. So there should not be an option to help them!

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:59 pm

lol!!! i havent said exactly like a dm, but it should try atleast, excuse me for not clarifying that,

Oh really? Let's see if this is true or not...

I really dont care at all, about the dragons or anything really, i dont care if they make it they way you refer or whatever, i want my decisions to have a full impact on the game, my interaction with the other characters, my rewards, the end, everything, i dont care about the lore, the engine of the game should be able to handle the game like a DM

Looks to me like it's exactly what you said. I guess it's all my fault and my mistake for interpreting "handle the game like a DM" as your wanting the game engine to handle the game like a DM?

My fault entirely, for improperly interpreting what you said to mean what you said.

I'm outta this thread...it is indeed a complete waste of time.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:50 am

No because it makes the quest line shorter since its 2 half quest lines that add up to 1 full quest line...and you can only play one per character.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:13 am

@Jimis

You should simply remove the "no" option in the poll, since you don't wish to accept such a choice, or an explanation for it, as possible.
When it comes to the Elder Scrolls games, there must only be ONE ending. Period. How would Oblivion have taken place if Dagoth Ur conquered Cyrodiil? It wouldn't have. Heck, this poll is unanswerable because the TES games have no ending. It isn't just a loss of resources and time better spent optimizing the engine/quests/ai/whatnot, but it is a huge break in lore. If TES5 has no definitive ending, where will the next game start?

"I dont care about the lore, i care about the gameplay"
Why do you even play Elder Scrolls games? Lore is one of biggest reasons as to why they're so good.

"i guess you dont have a clue of how an rpg game should be like"
Deriding others is no way to get a point across. RPG games CAN and DO, in some cases (TES), have ONE ending. The definition: "A role-playing game (RPG) is a broad family of games in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[1] Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines." The developer creates the story, you play through it by filling the role of one of it's characters (often the main character). There.

"i m a customer and i want it to have it all, i dont care how they will make it fit the story, because i may not buy the next game, and the story outside the game is an excuse to simplify things, so i dont care"
So basically you want this game to cater to your wishes while discarding any and all chances of future games? I don't understand your reasoning, ~~please elaborate upon it.~~

Edit: Actually, I'll follow Alois Hammer's wise choice and leave this thread. If you do not wish to listen there is no need to explain.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:20 pm

yeah - I want it to be a big frigging Armageddon kind of battle in the end you're getting pwnd here and there by lots of l33t dudes with sweet g34r and when u'r down to like 1 hp u get this awesome blast and....
It was ALL just a dream.
Not the battle...
Not Skyrim...

The whole TES now wouldnt THAT be awesome?

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:05 am

It's still a waste of time that could be used for many other things that go with creating a massive world like TES. You asked me "What things?" and it's really not a question that needs to be asked if you ever took the time to create something and realize that you can take time from one thing and improved something else.

You know what you're saying here is that Bethesda should put limits on their players. RPGs all about choices and freedom of choice. If there's only one ending, then you're being forced down a path you may not actually want to take.

People, Daggerfall had multiple endings and it worked just fine.

» Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:03 pm

That would be cool.