Should gender differences be based on the cultural gender roles of the province the game takes place in (Skyrim)?
Or should gender differences be based on racial gender dimorphism?

Nature vs Nurture?

Current indications are that there will be no differences, aside from appearance, between any characters at the start of the game. Not simply no differences based on, for instance, gender, but no differences at all.

Attributes are gone, so any differences (even though, in the past, temporary) that were related to them are also gone. Perks are said to take the place of those things, but perks are also said to be granted at level-up. So unless there's some set of perks available at character creation (which is, at this point, only a possibility) there will be - CAN BE - no way in which any differences between characters (again, aside from appearance) could even be quantified by the game.

Wait, so no racial differences beyond appearance?

I really they will not make any differences between the genders stat wise. My female warrior character should not be penalized with lower strength or my male wizard with lowered willpower.
Not that it mattered later on when all stats were maxed but still...
Speaking of stats, I hope race will raise/lower the stat cap though.

Yep. Where have you been OP?

There might be skill modifiers, though that's only a possibility. There can't be any other differences, since there are no longer any quantities to make different. One race can't have more or less strength or agility or personality or what-have-you when those things no longer even exist.

I'm not happy about the attributes being removed, but the initial differences between genders and races could be hard coded into the game. In Fallout 3 and NV the only gender differences were in a few of the perks, which could only be taken by a male or a female character (but there were matching perks for both genders . . . essentially nullifying any differences).

I scripted in gender differences as part of my Realism Tweaks' Hard-Core module . . . which some users hated and others loved (some people get offended if their character's gender or race are used to make them a bit more unique in their abilities). I was even accused of being sixist . . . even though I explained that my gender differences were only done to increase character diversity, and were not meant to reflect any perceived real-life differences.

Man, you started sounding really sixist right around when you said males would have higher intelligence.

Differences in starting skill levels based on race.

But yeah, I don't know where they would put the differences based on gender now.

I don't think so. Maybe some very subtle differences.

Are we even 100% they will let you play as different genders? All the gameplay footage so far shows a male PC. And in a lot of the stories I've seen it stated as you simply choose the race and off you go. They curiously omit the part about choosing genders.

Of course they should, although the way things are going, it'll probably get cut too.

There can still be the racial powers (greater & lesser) and racial passives (like dark elf fire resistance)..... we'll see.

There is no statement about that yet.

People are interpreting to much into the little information released so far.
We don't know anything specific about initial differences of races or genders as far as I'm informed.

It'll get replaced by a perk, because it was too "spreadsheety."

We may need to go King Of Comedy on Todd and kidnap him for content ransom.

Disclaimer: This is a joke.

so this is the sixism thread?
men having higher strength and intelligence while women have much better house cleaning skills which will stop the dragon in its tracks while it considers destroying it or simply having a nice cup of tea.. im guessing the women will have much more impressive shouts, because even a dragon cant win an argument against an angry women :cryvaultboy:

Since Attributes are gone I'll say no they should have the same starting stats/Skills. Now for the different races starting at different Skill Points that's different. I would want a Breton to have a higher starting bonus in Restoration then say an Imperial but that Same Imperial will have a higher starting bonus in Speechcraft or One Handed then say the Breton.

Yeah, but attributes no longer exist, so the question is meaningless unless he's asking about specific skills or derived stats like health and fatigue.

They've confirmed you can choose gender.

No because if i want to have the full potential of a stat i dont want to be forced into being a male/female character. It interupts with the role-playing aspect of the game.

And yes there are 3 attributes..not fully taken out.

Sorry bud... I just read your whole post and yeah, it looks kinda sixist. Scratch that, really sixist. I'll try not to hold it against you personally.

Let's set aside the sixist bit for now. There are very legitimate gameplay reasons not to do what you're describing. What you just proposed would make all male characters better than all female characters, because they would be intrinsically better at magic and melee combat, leaving only the historically weaker stealth combat for females. That is disbalanced and limits the options for roleplayers. All these changes will do is help you minmax your male character. Do you really want to be a minmaxer? Really?

Additionally, attributes are out... haven't you heard? The naysayers are sneezing all over the forums.

And finally, let's get back to the "you-just-seriously-insulted-my-demographic" bit. I'm a girl, you're a guy, and I'd bet good money that I'm smarter than you are.


--- Edit ---

Sorry, I shouldn't have said a lot of the things I said above. I doubt the OP meant it the way I took it. However, these points remain...

- The proposal in the thread first post was gameplay-unbalanced in favor of male PCs and in that sense, intrinsically flawed.

- While there is some reality-based justification for male human characters being stronger, on average, the rest of it doesn't hold water. This is because:
--- Many traits commonly assigned to women, like better people skills and the ability to endure pain better, may be partially or fully the product of culture rather than genetics. These two factors are inseparable without some highly unethical experiments, and even that would not eliminate observer bias.
--- TES humans are not real humans. Case in point: they can summon fire, or heal themselves, with an invocation and some willpower.
--- Elves (including Khajiits) and Argonians are not even TES humans. Argonians are spiritually descended from magical trees. There's no immediate, "logical" reason their females wouldn't be bigger and stronger, and smarter, and better in every way. Or the reverse.

- While the OP may not have intended it, what he says has Unfortunate Implications. Suggesting that males should have a higher strength stat "because that's what it's like in real life!" is a tired old rant, and proposing that females have higher Personality to compensate is an almost universal accompaniment. All of the objections above apply to this basic template; it's deeply flawed, but I never really got angry about it. However, in this thread an additional bit of spice was thrown in by the suggestion that males should have higher intelligence. While the OP never justifies this explicitly as "men in real life are smarter than women", that does seem to be what he's suggesting. And, well, it's offensive, and has absolutely no basis in reality, not even the questionable justification used for giving women better people skills.

This last point may sound like me being oversensitive. I guess it is; as I said, I doubt the OP meant it the way I took it. However, it is worth mentioning that while gender discrimination is not an issue many (most?) Western women ever have to deal with in their lives, it is still an issue that affects lives and livelihoods, ambitions and achievements. I say this from personal experiences and due to issues current to my own profession, which suffers from a massive gender imbalance. It is fair to ask that people read and consider a post before responding; it is equally fair to ask that people consider before they post.

All the same. I was out of line. I apologize for behaving nastily in a public forum.

That's something a girl doesn't hear every day. Thanks!

- You should have been here yesterday when I suggested Bethesda needed to post more images of women. No one wanted to marry me then . . . -



Really? As a woman, I'm not particularly offended. (Not that in real life some women aren't stronger than, say, my brother. Many women, in fact.)

Let's begin by recognizing that men and woman are different. (I'll never forget, since my high school biology teacher said women had "breeding hips". There's an image that's just never left my mind.) There are some stats to indicate women make better long distance runners, gymnasts, etc. Men are traditionally stronger - but not always.

Let's next recognize we're talking about the beginning of the game. To use an Oblivion example, I can train up in blade, blunt, and armorer to 100 and be as strong as any man - or at least as strong as I need to be.

I really don't think the difference is all that critical, except maybe in the first few levels. But that's just me and I've kinda been been avoiding the whole conversation because - you know - it's really miniscule.

~ Dani ~

My issue (as stated by others) is that in Morrowind and Oblivion, many of the boosts were merely head starts.


I think that they should instead include these modifications in more permanent fixtures like perks.


I mean when you think about it, there is absolutely no reason to pick a race or six with higher strength, when everyone would have the same stats in the end. Might as well pick the person with increased magicka or resistance to stuff.

Equality might actually take it's place in The Elder Scrolls.