Simplfication, this is a simplification : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:28 pm

I can't wait to play...

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:03 am

Greaves in Morrowind and Oblivion aren't just knee pads. They're effectively trousers (pants if you're American).

And if you honestly can't see how the series is being streamlined / made much more accessible, you've either never played Morrowind and Daggerfall, or seriously need to remove the rose-tinted glasses. Even BGS have said repeatedly that they're trying to make Skyrim much more accessible than previous TES games.

Accessibility doesn't always equal dumbing down, but in this case I think it most definitely does. More accessibility should only be required when a game is incredibly difficult, complex, hard to get into. Oblivion was none of these. By RPG standards it's incredibly mainstream and easy to play. If anything, they should be taking Skyrim in the opposite direction and making it less accessible, a lot harder, and more complex. That's what most fans want. Not to be treated like mindless monkeys that need their hands held throughout the game.

Again, that′s the point.

Have you realized how easy Oblivion is? Have you realized that adding difficulty in Oblivion means something as simple as "make enemies stronger".

C′mon, don′t you want a bit of difficulty like for example places that are difficult to find, finding objects, difficult quests...In Oblivion, quest were only a matter of time.

Isn′t FCOM and OOO one of the most downloaded mods? These mods add complexity, guys.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:09 am

When it comes down to it this is no different than the 1980 (and before) comics compared to the mid 90's (until today) comics.

We are seeing a drive to more pictures/animations and less text/story. There is a movement which believes that better visuals make for a better story (Hollywood anyone??); whereby, great stories are usually told within books with much text. Our brains use our imagination to create the perfect world or setting for what is being protrayed - with video games they are trying to tell our brains what the setting should look like.

For me, I have always prefered to read a book; however it has been sometime since I have picked one up - I think I am getting lazy, as is my brain.

Unfortunately, games such as the witcher, two worlds, older TES and even skyrim, these are all limited by the imaginations of the dev's (granted they are all great games if you look at them as creations) and these limitations are creating an upset fan base of the hardcoe gamers. Most games in the RPG category are selling out in one way or another, or have limations that can only be surpassed with greater processing speeds (please bring me new console war soon).

As a true gamer all I can hope for is the blending of fan base ideas with dev team skills; this next generation of console will be completely different as with social media, devs are able to really tap into all gamers ideas (not just the hardcoe).

In the end, I believe I will have a great time playing this game and I trust mthat many of you will too!

Toodles

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:33 am

I'd take this thread a tad bit serious if your said you weren't buying the game. I believe Oblivion was getting good ratings and brought in a lot of money, so has the GOYT edition and etc, they released Q & A before the game so really if the game is so horrible why buy it, you guys love to make your lives a living hell, and some games don't give out Q & A's so you hardly know what your in for, Oblivion after reading the Q & A, I noticed you could easily tell what you'll be getting yourself into, so every one complained and bought the game, then complained saying it was horrible...common sense lol.

That being said, you guys can talk all kinds of b/s but unless you doing the walk to, Beth will keep laughing at you guys as that's what I am do when I see these types of threads. Take note that I'm not saying don't buy the game because you'd be the only few specs of the desert. Beth might see their flaws but when their sitting on millions it's kind of hard to see every thing lol, this is a form of real talk, meaning it's reality and 99 % of the issue. If I get game of the year and loose some fans from morrowind who think I need to meet their standards all the time rather than exceed and branch out to others and make even more money, I'd have to be stupid as hell.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:50 am

My cousin said that the one thing about Dragon Age: Origins that annoyed him because the game didn't tell him where to go and that he had to keep messing around with swords and armour. He didn't like Morrowind because of the same reasons and that it was too hard. Yet he loved Oblivion and Dragon Age 2 because both of these games were easier on him. Turns out a lot of people are like him.

I'm sure there are. Why these people play rpgs tho', is beyond me.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:54 am

I'm sure there are. Why these people play rpgs tho', is beyond me.

Because everyone has to start off somewhere?

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:13 am

Again, that′s the point.

Have you realized how easy Oblivion is? Have you realized that adding difficulty in Oblivion means something as simple as "make enemies stronger".

C′mon, don′t you want a bit of difficulty like for example places that are difficult to find, finding objects, difficult quests...In Oblivion, quest were only a matter of time.

Isn′t FCOM and OOO one of the most downloaded mods? These mods add complexity, guys.

Seems that most people dont want a more difficult game, and the most is where theyre making there money.

People dont like having to walk...keep fast travel
People dont like having to look for dungeons...points of interest pointed out to you
People dont like reading/following directions....quest markers in
People dont like not knowing things...things like compass constantly telling you where enemies are/where you need to go at all times get added

My cousin said that the one thing about Dragon Age: Origins that annoyed him because the game didn't tell him where to go and that he had to keep messing around with swords and armour. He didn't like Morrowind because of the same reasons and that it was too hard. Yet he loved Oblivion and Dragon Age 2 because both of these games were easier on him. Turns out a lot of people are like him

So yes, unfortunately for i guess the few of us....most people do want an easy game.

Im still psyched about it and am going to pre order.....cant wait to play it and it should be awesome. But i agree it seems a lot of the challenge is being slowly taken out of the games as they progress. Id prefer if they headed in the other direction, making it more challenging/require more thought, strategy, and all that. The latter is just much more rewarding to me i guess once you figure something out for yourself, or you kill this guy after 4 tries cause he was so difficult it took you some time to get the right strategy down.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:48 am

Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, I've had a bad day and just want to get in front of a screen and hack and stab and fireball the faces off some virtual gribblies. TES does this, and still leaves room for plenty of role playing, and character development, and interaction with non hostile npcs, and collecting all that armour that everyone thinks is so important, and doing faction quests, and all the stuff like alchemy and enchanting and what have you. Oh, and reading lore books, and exploring, and collecting whatever the hell takes your fancy, and buying houses, and stealing and sneaking, and getting recognised by your deeds. All the ingredients of an action/adventure game, or so it would seem.

Man, why do I always have to agree with you?
This is getting weird... :eek:

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:57 am

Im still psyched about it and am going to pre order.....cant wait to play it and it should be awesome. But i agree it seems a lot of the challenge is being slowly taken out of the games as they progress. Id prefer if they headed in the other direction, making it more challenging/require more thought, strategy, and all that. The latter is just much more rewarding to me i guess once you figure something out for yourself, or you kill this guy after 4 tries cause he was so difficult it took you some time to get the right strategy down.

YES! I find after completing a challenge I've been struggling on for a while is rewarding once you get the job done.

I still want to play Skyrim and I'll be buying it on the 11-11-11 but you've highlighted my favourite aspects of a good game, the thought, the challenge and the strategy. Like I said, like you I still will be buying Skyrim because I'm a fan of the series but I just want to have a difficult time without something saying, "hey, look over there!" I mean my first games were the Monkey Island series. Back when there was no hand-holding and tiny references of help. But completing something that has been plaguing you was, as a gamer, so rewarding as you really could say you did a job well done.

Very few games have that nowadays.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:27 am

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1237648331755.jpg

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:40 am

I dont get why every one keeps pissing themselves over a lack of greaves, or rather a merging of greaves. the stats stay the same, its easier to manage, you dont have carry 100 pounds of armor like my oblivion charector, and realy there just pants. PANTS! i mean if they merged helmets with a curius then ya i would understand, i personaly will wear the viking helmet with every armor set, but pants? who cares if you cant wear steel grieves with fur boots or an orchish curius, i would just get every set of the armor any ways. plus now you get more sets of armor, which is amazing. So can all of you stop complaining already.

P.S. The same goes for spears or levatation or what ever else you want to complain about. Bethesda knows what there doing so show some faith.

» Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:19 pm

Dumbing down TES since 1996! Who is it that has the sig around here? :thumbsup:

MW was just a dumbed down Daggerfall. The trend continues.......

And Daggerfall was a dumbed down Arena... that was the joke.

Also, I've changed the sig, it is a lot more appropriate for this thread.

With you all the way. However judging by the reactions of the regulars here when someone suggested a very interesting idea - different weapons being effective on different mobs - TES's contemporary audience simply dislikes complexity. Sad but true.

My favourite saying:
COMPLEXITY =/= DEPTH

Yes yes, only numbers you see.
How about ability bash doors, banking system, more interesting smiting service, courts, capes, advantages and disadvantages, interesting enchantment, backgrounds, more defined classes.
There was more details but you see only numbers, what a shame, but Morrowind give nice equation it loose certain features but brings more also, in Oblivion such equation dont work properly and seems Skyrim will continue this.

I'm really curious what Morrowind gave...

Especially what cannot be found in Skyrim or Oblivion.

But yeah, what I'm talking about is not me seeing numbers everywhere, but everyone else. We lost a variable that showed in number, oh no, now that thing doesn't exist. I stopped reading the OP when he mentioned we lost skills... HOW DOES THAT MATTER? You can still do the exact same things as before if not more.
Because they just dumb down the game for the casual gamers, because they don't like features? Yeah it's not like we've got more stuff... Smithing, dual wield, dragons, interactive environment, marriage, companions, destroyable buildings, dynamically changing quests, new spell system, thicker and thinner characters, Dragonshouts, new dialog system...

Yeah, they're dumbing things down alright... :rolleyes:

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:42 am

Because everyone has to start off somewhere?

Morrowind was my first real RPG. And I was really bad at playing it for the first few weeks.

But I didn't whine (much), and I NEVER complained that Beth had made the game too difficult for beginners.

I just put in the effort, until I figured out how to play the game. And then I created a website to help other beginners figured it out.

My point is, if you're not willing to put in the effort, you shouldn't even play RPGs . . . and you should definitely pass on TES.

But, instead of putting in the effort, many gamers who are new to RPGs just whined in-mass until Beth caved in and made Oblivion a much more mainstreamed game.

Now the same thing is happening all over again with Skyrim, which is very depressing for me.

I put in the effort to master Morrowind, and now most of what I learned (and grew to love) about playing an in-depth RPG does not even exist in the more recent TES RPGs.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:43 am

Morrowind was my first real RPG. And I was really bad at playing it for the first few weeks.

But I didn't whine (much), and I NEVER complained that Beth had made the game too difficult for beginners.

I just put in the effort, until I figured out how to play the game. And then I created a website to help other beginners figured it out.

My point is, if you're not willing to put in the effort, you shouldn't even play RPGs . . . and you should definitely pass on TES.

But, instead of putting in the effort, many gamers who are new to RPGs just whined in-mass until Beth caved in and made Oblivion a much more mainstreamed game.

Now the same thing is happening all over again with Skyrim, which is very depressing for me.

I put in the effort to master Morrowind, and now most of what I learned (and grew to love) about playing an in-depth RPG does not even exist in the more recent TES RPGs.

This is not logical. They have to SELL their games. They need money to survive and keep going.
They do games for money, not for the love of the ~~annoying~~ fans. Get over it.

» Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:48 pm

Yeah, it really svcks that the wider gaming audience of TES doesn't share the immense intellectual force of this forum.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:04 am

And Daggerfall was a dumbed down Arena... that was the joke.

Also, I've changed the sig, it is a lot more appropriate for this thread.

My favourite saying:
COMPLEXITY =/= DEPTH

Ah, I knew it was something like that, and yes I agree. Complexity for the sake of complexity is usually not a good thing. The best approach of course is initial simplicity but underlying complexity. That's pretty hard to pull off though, unless your name is Blizzard this approach often doesn't end well. :tongue:

I'd also add to your statement that Quantity =/= Complexity. Just because you have a billion skills and attributes to choose from doesn't make it complex. It would just make it a mess.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:11 am

NUMBERS, WE NEED MOAR NUMBERS!
HIGHER NUMBERS BETTER NUMBER! NUMBERS

Don't you know everybody plays RPGs because of NUMBERS!

If they remove NUMBERS they're ruining the game! NUMBERS, NUMBERS!

This here encapsulates the entire argument. The definition of an RPG is so undefined that anytime we take an RPG element out, people think it's turned into another genre. Skyrim is still an RPG because you can make choices in the world, go on quests to gain in game rewards, have a stats system (the skills), can manually select and increase your abilities (perks), and play a greater part in the world at large. We need to realize that RPGs are eventually going to get rid of all visible numbers, and operate solely on your playstyle. I think judging where you go and how you do it through gameplay is an amazing concept, and Skyrim is one of the first to really try that because of the developers at the reigns. Simplified does not mean dumbed down.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:50 am

Yeah, little boy′s shouldn′t use a knife.Little boys that find TES difficult should not play it.

Don′t ruin the game to please noobs.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:28 am

Morrowind was my first real RPG. And I was really bad at playing it for the first few weeks.

But I didn't whine (much), and I NEVER complained that Beth had made the game too difficult for beginners.

I just put in the effort, until I figured out how to play the game. And then I created a website to help other beginners figured it out.

My point is, if you're not willing to put in the effort, you shouldn't even play RPGs . . . and you should definitely pass on TES.

But, instead of putting in the effort, many gamers who are new to RPGs just whined in-mass until Beth caved in and made Oblivion a much more mainstreamed game.

Now the same thing is happening all over again with Skyrim, which is very depressing for me.

I put in the effort to master Morrowind, and now most of what I learned (and grew to love) about playing an in-depth RPG does not even exist in the more recent TES RPGs.

I so agree with every word of this, it is as if I could have written it myself.

You know, I like the learning curve of a game. The best parts of a game are things you havent figured out yet. Places you havent explored, quests you havent done, but also the realisation that you could put any spell you knew on an item, if you had the gold (Morrowind), or finding out what a certain spell effect did.
I dont want everything chewed out for me and easy to figure out.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:34 am

I′m so tired to see how the best sagas are completely destroyed. Are you going to defend Bethesda until they ruin ES sagas? Don′t you really see they are ruining the game. DON′T GET ME WRONG, I really want to be wrong, I really want a new Elder Scrolls, but
I′m not a fan boy, when I have to criticize the game I do it.

I love Oblivion. I still play it. I play it with a lot of mods. I love Morrowind, I also still play it, and also with a lot of mods. Oblivion was more simplified than Morrowind. Removal of skills, removal of depth, the addition of quest markers, fast travel... But it was still a great game. And with mods it is the best game I′ve ever played, but we cannot let modders do all the work. And now Skyrim has, 3 skills removed! Are we going to see an Elder Scrolls with only two skills, combat and magic?

Removal of three skills is a simplification, removal of the attributes is a simplification, mantaining the fast travel is a simplification, simplifying armor system is of course a simplification. Do you know how many hour did I spend getting all the pieces of my glass armor in Morrowind?

C′mon guys, stop defending Bethesda, they don′t do everything all right, they make mistakes. I know you consider ES games best saga forever, I also do it.

I know you want all the old things to remain, but if all the old thing remain you would say that bethesda doesnt improve their games and now when they do you say they only do it to the worse even tho you haven't even played the game.
Also you completely ignore the reasons and the ups of those design choices.

stats are only one way of defining how good we are at something, and as beth said they took just one layer out which was unnecessary....it doesn't make you anymore harcore gamer if you want the attributes back,
and yes they removed 3 skils and that is sinmlification, but is adding over 100 or was it over 200 perks simlification.....now they added 1 more layer to the game.

Now as far as I see your depth of the game is based on 2 things.....static screens and armors....don't you see that they made the game world the AI more lively and in depth is that simlification....they advanced their NPC and AI systems.

They included lot more variety in fighting added new third aspect, the shouts, dual wielding, magic is changed not streamlined.

changed quest marker to spell you don't have to use.

Carriage AND quick travel so everyone is happy..

Made so that you have no minor or major skills you choose your selves what you want to be through out the game.....not streamlining...it's removing restrictions.

true they have made changes, but before you buy the game you should remain faithful

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:25 am

So Morrowind was harder because it had a horrible tutorial?

I would even argue how level scaling made the game easier in Oblivion, because it actually made it annoyingly hard at later levels (while those same later levels in Morrowind were annoyingly easy...)

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:35 am

Yeah, little boy′s shouldn′t use a knife.Little boys that find TES difficult should not play it.

Don′t ruin the game to please noobs.

You know, there are people who like open world games, filled with exploration and character development, lots of quests, and a multitude of playstyles, but also find a lot of the traditional RPG elements overly Byzantine. Should Bethesda ignore these people? Are their preferences less worthy than yours?

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:34 am

The thing is that every change they've made is either a really good design choice (ie merging armor) or so miniscule it doesn't even matter. When the community nerdrages about the series being "ruined" over stuff like this it's just impossible to take you seriously. Merging armor to improve performance and give us MORE armor choices is so obviously a good idea, yet you people piss and moan JUST because it's different. Pathetic.

» Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:18 pm

Isn′t FCOM and OOO one of the most downloaded mods?

Not arguing your point, I just got curious

Sorting the mods at Nexus by "most downloads", the first page lists:

Oblivion Mod Manager 1.44 mil
HGEC Body 1.41 mil
Deadly Reflex 952k
High Rez Skin Textures for HGEC 915k
Unofficial Oblivion Patch 914k
Midas Magic 839k
Rens Beauty Pack 787k
Apachii Goddess Store (HGEC clothes) 757k
Natural Environments 703k
Exnem Eyecandy Body 682k

Doing searches:
OOO 331k
Francesco's 41k
MMM 100k
FCOM 139k

(disclaimer - I think some of these have alternate sites people get them from)

» Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:55 pm

You know why I am going to love this game? Because I am just going to play it, and take it on it's own merits, rather than comparing everything in it to earlier games. Simple as that.

YES!

:thumbsup: :foodndrink: :celebration: