ok what don't you understand in DIFFICULTY SHOULD BE IN GAMEPLAY, NOT CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION/CREATION. I should have to think carefully about how to approach a tough enemy. I SHOULDN'T have to think for hoyurs just to make a good warrior.

Some changes are NOT for accessibility, but for OTHER REASON that were CLEARLY stated.

For example, having a complete armor set, I won't feel like my hand is being held. and if the armors actually look good (and the character in the background is alreado a good sign), then I'll be GLAD for this change.

Seriously, people need to learn the [censored] difference between what they don't like being changed, and what makes the game simpler.

Look, I'll make a big list, because everyone likes lists right?

Attributes - don't give a [censored]. I still get to get better by raising my skills, and choosing stuff at level up.
Mysticism - don't care, the effects are still there, in other schools
Hand to Hand - well, you still get to punch. I don't exactly agree with it, but I don't really mind the decision
Spears - not a fan of the weapon, so I obviously don't care
crossbows - would have liked them, but oh well
Separate armor - oh, big loss, we get better looking armor instead... I prefer a good looking set to a weird as [censored] combination. Also, you still get separate boots and gloves
Levitation - would have been cool yeah. that's one thing I really don't like
Mark and Recall - basically known as "the lazy way out" for me. don't care
True character custo- YOU STILL GET IT

Now I won't make a list for the positive things that were announced, that would take me 3 hours to write. but there's already one somewhere on the forums, and it's like 200 lines long

No. I have been gaming long enough to know when a game is sliding down mt dunderhead. This isnt going that way at all.

Its just changing.

In simple terms what you focused on was 30% of the game and is now 5% while what you didnt care about was 5% and is now 50%.

Thisd makes it look like the game is less then it was when its just less FOR YOU. But its more for alot of people out there.

This. ^

All of the hating on Skyrim is juvenile and misplaced. The game has not released yet. Most of the speculation around the game mechanics and the changes put forward are just that, speculation. It is arrogant and foolish to assume that you know how this game will play out. How dare you try to pre-classify this as an action game? Have you played through it firsthand?

At least hold back judgement about a game (that you had no hand in, that you probably lack the skills to produce) until you've at least touched it with your own hands.

Skyrim will most likely be great, because regardless of your criticisms about Oblivion as it compares to Morrowind, Oblivion is still a great RPG when compared to the rest of what is available to gamers nowadays.

Exactly.

So, Bethesda should exclude a large part of their market to accommodate those folks who have hours and hours to 'master' their games? It looks like what you're saying here is that Bethesda shouldn't even *try* to draw in the casual gamer crowd. Funny, because I know lots of casual gamers who *love* RPGs.

Nobody should have to "pass on TES" just because they don't have enough time to spend just getting comfortable with a game. Nobody.

You may be depressed that things are going the way they are, but it's happening and nothing's going to change it.

You're right. Fortunately for Skyrim, simplification isn't always a bad thing.

Someone need to make a poll asking whether the haters are going to be buying the game on PC. It would prove haters hate just to be hating! Since mods will fix their endless concerns. Probably within a month of release.

It's bethesda"s baby. They"ll do what the hell they want with it.

Same.

To be honest there are quite a few things you exaggerate and over emphasize just to get your point accross, which in all honesty isn't neccesary since most of us on these forums is a TES fan, not just a Skyrim one so we know all there is and then some regarding the series, the development of Skyrim, and the past games. What you and many others must understand is that no game is going to be completely similiar to its predecessor and this game is in fact abiding by that rule. My one peice of advice to you is to not bring in other games in order to compare and just take each game for what it is in its own entirety, because if youre stuck comparing between the games you'll never truly enjoy each game for what they are.


I'm also a little concerned here when you state that the best sagas are getting destroyed, but if a saga is destroyed by one game, or more, then how can that series of games truly be considered one of the best?


"21-3=2"
Don't see the logic here, but that may just be me.


Here we are again comparing the difficulty between a game that has been released and a game that is in development, and even though I haven't the slightest clue what your final statement means you can't simply know how the difficulty is going to be considering the fact that so many aspects have been changed especially regarding the quest issue, and lastly might I add that its quite bold of you to state that Bethesda is making a mistake in judgement pertaining to a game/series that is setup in their vision of what they want it to be/play like.

Why? This is very bad way of selling something, when someone bought something the provider should make sure they get the smoothest introduction so they can start enjoying what they spent their hard earned money on. It would be like going to a restaurant, buying cheese, and then the cook simply gives you are cow and tells you to make your own cheese, because if you wont put in the effort of making cheese, you shouldn't be eating it.


I also find your actions with your gained knowledge to be contradictory to your viewpoint, by making a website to help others, you potentially let in a lot people to the series who would otherwise not have put in the effort of to figure it out themselves, basically you lowered the effort required of others, and so have contributed to your own problem.

Did I ask for Beth to change it? I am merely stating my opinion here, and trying to add a little perspective here. That's all.

Beth should NOT be catering to gamers who are not willing to put in the effort. Period.

There are tons of other games that require little or no effort. TES is SUPPOSE to be different from most other games.

According to Todd, the game takes 200 to 300 hours to complete. So why would gamers who "don't have enough time" to invest in the game going to even purchase it?

If a game takes 300 hours to complete, is it so taxing if a gamer new to TES has to invest 8 to 10 hours (like 3% of the entire game) in learn how to play the game well?

Besides, what's the rush? TES RPGs are only released like every 5 years or so.

Do you think I have endless time to play RPGs?

I had a lot going on in my life when Morrowind was released (including a number of major operations), so I wasn't able to play all that much at all. It was nearly 2 years before I completed the Main Quest.

Well, it's quite simple. I'll be enjoying my time in the game. Why? because I chose so.
I don't care for being "hardcoe" or [censored] like that, because seriously, there's nothing to be proud about for spending your free time on a couch with a controller in your hand/ in front of the computer screen.
I don't identify myself to the games I play. I play the games I find to be fun. That's all.
I'm not a casual. I spend a lot of time gaming. I just don't give a [censored] if your little ego is hurt by playing a game that someone with an IQ lower than Einstein's could play

This is only adressed to those who feel concerned by it. I didn't target anyone in particular

At the end of the day if I had to pick someone to decide what is best for Skyrim, Todd Howard (and the rest of the Beth team) who have years of game development experience and have created some of the best cRPG's ever or all us armchair designers (myself included) who like to complain on the forum I know who I want making the decisions.

That's not to say they can't listen to our concerns and feedback, but I know they'll do what is right for the game. That's not blind faith or being a sheep. That is just realizing they are a lot better at this by virtue of sheer experience than any of us would be. :icecream:

So if they decide merging two armor pieces into one, or losing a skill or two, or including romances, or excluding spears, or whatever is the right thing to do for the game, so be it.

You cant be wrong, this is a opinion.

They should make a game targetted at RPG fans, not everyone. They should forget about all this accessibility crap and just make the best RPG possible. Old fans will be pleased, and new fans with the capacity to appreciate RPGs will come along. It's really that simple.

It's only when you start trying to appeal to a much broader audience outside of the RPG genre that you end up with an inferior game. A wise man once said that when you try and please everyone, you run the risk of pleasing noone.


...

And please, spare me the sales crap. Morrowind was very popular, as was Oblivion. It's not like they need to drastically improve sales to save the company from going out of business by making the series accessible to a much wider audience. :rolleyes: You cater to a certain audience, earn respect, build a fanbase over time. That's how it should work. It's only when you get really greedy and go for a much larger audience (while alienating your current one) that a series starts going downhill fast.

So because the start is easier the whole game won't have any challenge?

Oh and those RPG elements everybody loves this game about? They're still there!

I think people are mostly mad about the fact there is one less armor slot and that there are no spears or crossbows... Things we kind of knew already, but nevermind.

Unless you are a programmer, how can you know the reason they did a certain thing? I am not defending them just asking the question. PS3 and 360 have limitations. If there is a game element that would make it more beleveable and they can not force it in then a trade off has to be made. Maybe skills swere redundant and actually did very little other than making it seem they did something. But to say they are ruining the game because of a few less items, well that is stretching it a bit don't you think? There seems to be way to much complaining with little information on these forums lately. :sadvaultboy:

You know what's funny is that they aren't removing the amount of item resources in the game, they're just moving them around. Ok, no spears or crossbows or whatever, but Beth has already said to expect MORE varieties on weapons and armors that are in the game.

I mean I get it. Maybe some people out there have love stories with these types of weapons. As a measure of quality though, it's hard to criticize a game for removing redundant weapon types to focus on a greater variety of weapons.

Words of wisdom right here

fixed


Anyways, I agree that some people shouldn't be [censored] and actually criticize something if it is worthy of it.

That being said, I still think Skyrim looks great.

It is a real tragedy. If it weren't for the Elder Scrolls name, I wouldn't take a second look at Skyrim.
Morrowind was, to me, the closest thing to a 'RPG-simulation' with a realistic approach I ever played, because you were incredibly free in your actions. Want to run faster? Increase your speed. Want to get to that mountaintop? Levitate, or train your acrobatics. Need to get to a town on the other side of the island? Use the silt striders, intervention spells, mark and recall, mages guild teleportation, walk there, swim there, levitate there, whatever.
But instead of building on this complex world, Beth removed more and more of its features. Skills. Guilds. Attributes. Spells. Armor. Weapons. Quests.

I don't quite get the sentiment that Morrowind was unaccessable, either. Everything made sense in one way or another, and if you can't be bothered to read item and skill descriptions, I don't think this genre is for you in the first place.

Today, most MMOs are incredibly more complex than TES. Which is funny, because most people here don't like MMOs. Right now I'm more excited about future updates for the MMOs I play than about Skyrim, and that is just sad.
And, guess what. People put up with that complexity. A lot of people. How long do you think it takes to play an MMO really well?


Options are not optional, Beth.

This
Game mechanics are not as important as is sometimes made out
I've been playing Drakensang a bit recently
Traditional RPG mechanics
Some bits eg character customisation (of stats, not appearance) are very good
Lousy game though
Generic world, boring predictable quests, lifeless cardboard cutouts for NPCs. Made Oblivion look good and I'm not a fan of Oblivion

re: games need to be impenetrable so that only the "chosen few" can enjoy them


Escapist Magazine's Extra Credits, on http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2921-Tutorials-101

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re: less armor slots

There are two concrete effects here

1) Less ability to play "dress up", since you can't use different chests & pants. Of course, the "better look" of combined armor, along with the advertised "more different armor" & possible appearance differences due to smithing may alleviate this

2) One less armor slot = One less slot you can enchant with a different effect. Yes, that's "less customization". Of course, we don't know the details of how the new Enchanting skill works. There may be more customization due to that. Additionally, with the new skill and how it works, having one less spot to put enchanted abilities may have been a play balance issue. (I can just imagine how many of the "but I can't customize my enchants as much" crowd would be back months later, complaining about how easy the game is because of some overpowered enchant combo they came up with.)

---------




And go to virtually any MMO forum, and you'll find the "old guard" nostalgia crew making thread after thread moaning about how "noobs" are infecting their game, the developers are "dumbing down" everything for the "casual gamers", that it was plenty popular back when it was actually hard and "only people who put in the effort" were worthy of playing, and how the game "is now ruined".


Hmm, that sounds familiar.

There's more to it than that. A lot more. Accessibility is clearly the main theme for the development process of Skyrim. Easier, simpler, more hand-holding. Then there's all the new gimmicks like finisher moves, shouts, marriages, etc. Basically everything about it screams 'casual action-RPG aimed at a mainstream audience'.

So games are only enjoyable if they are easy for everyone to play? I think not!

I found Morrowind very difficult at first . . . but I still REALLY enjoyed playing the game. The thing is, you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it, but most people are totally willing to put in the effort to get better at the things they enjoy doing.


Have you spent any time on my Morrowind Journal? Probably not, or you wouldn't have made that comment. My MW Journal is mostly a fantasy story, based on my own game play. It isn't a normal walk though or anything like that. But it did help countless gamers who were new to TES get through some of the trickier parts of the game (but they had to put in the effort to read though my story . . . which is NOT a short read). Beth even sent me a http://amito.freehostia.com/Morrowind/Thanks.htm after one of my toughest operations, which Pete Hines put together for me.