Simplicity nay-sayers should have a look at this... : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:31 pm

And let's not forget the main issue when speaking about complexity. There's complexity as such and then there's complexity that has been well factored into the actual gameplay - not just stats in inventory but something you can actually see and feel when you play. In other words, meaningless and meaningful complexity. There is no evidence whatsoever that complexity has been diminished in the latter sense. Some examples of removed features is known but there might be as much if not more added features of which we have no knowledge yet. There could be overcompensation for the removed features such as the much - loved pauldrons and crossbows.

im not sure I understand what you mean about meaningless and meaningful complexity, but I do know that removing so many core features cannot possibly mean more complexity.
I mean how could it, it really doesnt make any sense.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:14 pm

People need to understand that stat-based development is irrelevant in a world where modern tech enables us to give visual feedback that shows the player they're improving, instead of telling them they are through symbolic numbers.

You realize that that is the same thing right? And even then, its better to have both.

Some people need to realize that what people are complaining about is that we aren't getting everything we could have. We want everything that makes Skyrim look so freaking epic. We want perks. We want dragons. We want random-overblown-feature-xxx. But we also want everything else that made the past games what they were. (and yes, attributes did help make the past games what they were.)

Fact of the matter is, you people want less. We want more.

You don't have to use that spell.

Yeah, but the game will be designed around the assumption that you will, at one point, use it. Thus we won't see situations that require some thinking to get out of, because the dev's are going to assume that everytime the game gets to a jam, you're going to pull out the handy dandy spell and just follow the line.

And besides, the fact that we don't have to use it is irrelevant.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:24 am

And how does Skyrim not do this?

I never said that, because I don't know. I was just trying to explain the picture. :sadvaultboy:

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:56 pm

You realize that that is the same thing right? And even then, its better to have both.

Some people need to realize that what people are complaining about is that we aren't getting everything we could have. We want everything that makes Skyrim look so freaking epic. We want perks. We want dragons. We want random-overblown-feature-xxx. But we also want everything else that made the past games what they were. (and yes, attributes did help make the past games what they were.)

Fact of the matter is, you people want less. We want more.

To be honest I dont get the fuss about attritubes being removed. I mean I never noticed the difference..

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:34 pm

No, its not. The fact that the dev's felt it necessary to include a spell that shows you where to go, is evidence enough that they aren't aiming for a complex game.

Yes it is. Some things have been removed but more has been added. Simple math. And that example is just silly. Surely you're not putting that against the things I mentioned.

Overall, I found your post to be the same old moaning with very little substance to back up your claims. The fact is that Skyrim is more complex in many meaningful ways, but as I said, the overall evaluation can only be done after the game has been published.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:47 pm

I just want to respond to this quick, even though I am super late to the party...

Listen, whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion. I've always thought that the RPG elements of prior games were very weak, and were never really the major appeal of the series. Ask most people what they loved about Daggerfall and they'll say it's the fact that it's so ridiculously huge. Ask people what they liked about Morrowind and it's the sheer alien appeal of the setting, the way it turned a bunch of fantasy tropes on their heads and expanded the lore to a fantastic degree. Ask people what they loved about Oblivion and... well, let's not go there

It's a highly controversial one, just as Skyrim is turning out to be.

I've mentioned this before, but you can't just boil down TES (or any series) to a single or even a few "main" parts. Especially when we're talking about something as big and open as the Elder Scrolls.

Take Star Wars, for example. What did you love about Star Wars? Jedi, some might say. Lightsabers. Space battles. Etc. Well, the Prequel Trilogy has all that stuff and it's way sweeter with visuals and scope far surpassing the originals... But the movies were [censored]. And that's because Star Wars isn't just Jedi. It's not just lightsabers. It's not just space battles. It's not any single thing. It's the perfect, harmonious combination of all these different individual features that adds up to a greater whole. Removing any one of these, changing any one without respect to the original guiding philosophy (take the special editions of the original trilogy), damages the whole even if some other feature is added elsewhere.

This is why there is no clear benefit to trading attributes for perks. Maybe there is the same level of complexity, maybe not. But attributes are a metric used to model realistic characters, and that metric is now missing. Perks are, too, but in a different way. These removals damage the experience.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:22 pm

No, its not. The fact that the dev's felt it necessary to include a spell that shows you where to go, is evidence enough that they aren't aiming for a complex game.

Now, now, hold your horses there.
They made the spell that tells you where to go because they game is so complex (namely the dungeons)

Your kind of people always look at the bad side of things and whine about it until something happens. I'm actually starting to get aggravted, even thought I started this thread to try to make the forums more happy. And I think I found out who the main nay-sayer to this is... :shakehead:

This is why there is no clear benefit to trading attributes for perks. Maybe there is the same level of complexity, maybe not. But attributes are a metric used to model realistic characters, and that metric is now missing. Perks are, too, but in a different way. These removals damage the experience.

Maybe the attributes are the perks. See how it's hidden?

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:04 pm

Luck and Personality, neither of which can be perk based without losing variety. And those are the least talked about attributes.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Now, now, hold your horses there.
They made the spell that tells you where to go because they game is so complex (namely the dungeons)

Your kind of people always look at the bad side of things and whine about it until something happens. I'm actually starting to get aggravted, even thought I started this thread to try to make the forums more happy. And I think I found out who the main nay-sayer to this is... :shakehead:

So now you don't have to explore. Now, you just cast the spell and walk straight to you objective. At least in Oblivion you only knew the direction you had to go and not the exact route. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't buy it.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:44 am

So now you don't have to explore. Now, you just cast the spell and walk straight to you objective. At least in Oblivion you only knew the direction you had to go and not the exact route. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't buy it.

Well the spell is an option... In other words. no one is putting a gun to your head and say use it.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:58 am

Now, now, hold your horses there.
They made the spell that tells you where to go because they game is so complex (namely the dungeons)

I doubt that. They already have streams to tell you how to get out sometimes, we can assume that they already have compass arrows as well, and probably even a local map as usual. The only thing that spell does is allow those who really don't want to pay attention to find their way through dungeons. If you want truly complex dungeons, check Daggerfall.

Your kind of people always look at the bad side of things and whine about it until something happens. I'm actually starting to get aggravted, even thought I started this thread to try to make the forums more happy. And I think I found out who the main nay-sayer to this is... :shakehead:

Saying things like "your kind of people" only does to aggravate others. I wouldn't suggest it if you wish to keep this a happy topic.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:58 am

You realize that that is the same thing right? And even then, its better to have both.

Some people need to realize that what people are complaining about is that we aren't getting everything we could have. We want everything that makes Skyrim look so freaking epic. We want perks. We want dragons. We want random-overblown-feature-xxx. But we also want everything else that made the past games what they were. (and yes, attributes did help make the past games what they were.)

Fact of the matter is, you people want less. We want more.

Yeah, but the game will be designed around the assumption that you will, at one point, use it. Thus we won't see situations that require some thinking to get out of, because the dev's are going to assume that everytime the game gets to a jam, you're going to pull out the handy dandy spell and just follow the line.

And besides, the fact that we don't have to use it is irrelevant.

Did I hear you say that Skyrim looks epic?

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:25 pm

So now you don't have to explore. Now, you just cast the spell and walk straight to you objective. At least in Oblivion you only knew the direction you had to go and not the exact route. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't buy it.

*Walking to a location on top of a mountain in Cyrodill*

Hmm I don't see a path... maybe I have to climb the mountain?

*Struggles climbing the mountain while walking sideways for 10 minutes*

Got to the top, finished the mission. OH! The path was right there! Derp!

Or in Skyrim: Oh, I really can't find that path, here, let me use this spell. *shows path* Happy face

I doubt that.

Listen to the commentary again. He says they have that spell because some dungeons could get really complex.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:41 am

double post, my bad

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:07 am

Or in Skyrim: Oh, I really can't find that path, here, let me use this spell. *shows path* Happy face

You know what they need to add? A spell that plays the game for you! Then you won't ever have to struggle, or accomplish anything!

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:32 pm

Maybe the attributes are the perks. See how it's hidden?

No, perks are specialisation and attributes are generalisation. You use perks to specialise in swords or axes out of one handed weapons. You use attributes (strength in this case) to determine how good you are with melee weapons overall, so a skilled mace user would also be a skilled warhammer user in terms of pure damage they can do.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:23 pm

Whoa..wait you kids say that there is a spell in the game that point to exactly where you need to go?!? Wow this game is even worse than I thought. :down:

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:40 am

You realize that that is the same thing right? And even then, its better to have both.

Some people need to realize that what people are complaining about is that we aren't getting everything we could have. We want everything that makes Skyrim look so freaking epic. We want perks. We want dragons. We want random-overblown-feature-xxx. But we also want everything else that made the past games what they were. (and yes, attributes did help make the past games what they were.)

Fact of the matter is, you people want less. We want more.

I want more too, much more. Its just that, the more I want are things that aren't so "gamey." More monsters, more weapons and armor, more interesting dungeons and locales. Attributes, largely due to the min-maxing metagame that was almost required to get the most out of them, were a pretty cumbersome part of Oblivion. They were less noticeable in Morrowind, mostly because I used constant effect enchantments to make up for most shortcomings.

I really don't see anything important being removed here. And I'm sure you and I and everyone else in this thread will love Skyrim. Oblivion was limited because it was an experiment on new hardware, Skyrim will be a return to form for Bethesda.

I never said that, because I don't know. I was just trying to explain the picture. :sadvaultboy:

Haha Okay, that's fair then.

» Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Whoa..wait you kids say that there is a spell in the game that point to exactly where you need to go?!? Wow this game is even worse than I thought. :down:

Clairvoyance. It shows you the exact path to take through the dungeon to reach your objective.