Simplification, this is a simplification[Thread II] : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:05 pm

Previous topic:

Spoiler

I′m so tired to see how the best sagas are completely destroyed. Are you going to defend Bethesda until they ruin ES sagas? Don′t you really see they are ruining the game. DON′T GET ME WRONG, I really want to be wrong, I really want a new Elder Scrolls, but
I′m not a fan boy, when I have to criticize the game I do it.

I love Oblivion. I still play it. I play it with a lot of mods. I love Morrowind, I also still play it, and also with a lot of mods. Oblivion was more simplified than Morrowind. Removal of skills, removal of depth, the addition of quest markers, fast travel... But it was still a great game. And with mods it is the best game I′ve ever played, but we cannot let modders do all the work. And now Skyrim has, 3 skills removed! Are we going to see an Elder Scrolls with only two skills, combat and magic?

Removal of three skills is a simplification, removal of the attributes is a simplification, mantaining the fast travel is a simplification, simplifying armor system is of course a simplification. Do you know how many hour did I spend getting all the pieces of my glass armor in Morrowind?

C′mon guys, stop defending Bethesda, they don′t do everything all right, they make mistakes. I know you consider ES games best saga forever, I also do it.

Okay, now, you can kill me, you can call me hater, you can call me spammer...But I know that I′m not wrong, or probably this is not may day...

Dragonforks, on 06 July 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:
I actually agree with you somewhat, despite the fact that Skyrim remains my most anticipated game of 2011.

We also agree in that. Skyrim remains my most anticipated game of 2011. I′m prebuying it.

Cimex, on 06 July 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:
With you all the way. However judging by the reactions of the regulars here when someone suggested a very interesting idea - different weapons being effective on different mobs - TES's contemporary audience simply dislikes complexity. Sad but true.

That might be the problem.

sheogorath88, on 06 July 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

Greaves in Morrowind and Oblivion aren't just knee pads. They're effectively trousers (pants if you're American).

And if you honestly can't see how the series is being streamlined / made much more accessible, you've either never played Morrowind and Daggerfall, or seriously need to remove the rose-tinted glasses. Even BGS have said repeatedly that they're trying to make Skyrim much more accessible than previous TES games.

Accessibility doesn't always equal dumbing down, but in this case I think it most definitely does. More accessibility should only be required when a game is incredibly difficult, complex, hard to get into. Oblivion was none of these. By RPG standards it's incredibly mainstream and easy to play. If anything, they should be taking Skyrim in the opposite direction and making it less accessible, a lot harder, and more complex. That's what most fans want. Not to be treated like mindless monkeys that need their hands held throughout the game.

Again, that′s the point.

Have you realized how easy Oblivion is? Have you realized that adding difficulty in Oblivion means something as simple as "make enemies stronger".

C′mon, don′t you want a bit of difficulty like for example places that are difficult to find, finding objects, difficult quests...In Oblivion, quest were only a matter of time.

Isn′t FCOM and OOO one of the most downloaded mods? These mods add complexity, guys.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:49 pm

Does this really need a second thread? It was pretty clear that no one actually got convinced of the other side anyways

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:09 pm

The reason Oblivion wasn't as deep as Morrowind wasn't because it had less skills, which seems to be a point in that quote there.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:16 am

Gaining more sales, the word.

I've no doub't that Skyrim will be an amazing game and add to the series, no doub't at all. I just don't see the sense in all this "streamlining" what kind of excuse is "render more NPCS on screen" when the same amount of Detail would be present even if everything was seperate? but at the same time the devs are going to town with detail but there will be more NPC's? ok.

let me give an example of -MOVING FORWARD- without stepping on past games, its called expansion. theres is a space RTS, fairly old, about mid 2008 maybe? when they first came on stage. their ships werent of the epitome of graphics, but you had full 3D in the battle field and ships were segmented into 3 sections, and on those sections were turrets and wepaon mounts, and you could have dozens upon dozens of ships fighting at once with up to hundreds coming and dying over the course of the battle. it recieved 3 freaking expansion packs over the course of its life, and patches actually ADD content requested by the "minority" in their forums.

Now they are coming out with their second installment, the Graphics are six, the battlefields are expanded to include entire systems and tedious was streamlined (what was actually annoying) and the ship build system now includes the 3 sections, turrets, weapon mounts, MODULES and support components to the ships plus an upgraded combat system that doesnt just include ships exploding, in addition to that of the 3 ship sizes a 4th size was included, the smallest of the 3 was repurposed in a way that MADE SENSE and a whole ass load of other features WITHOUT cutting the content down or saying this is superflous. effectively they stated and proved that they aren't making the same game, boosting its graphics and slapping a two on it. completely new engine, not heavily modified or none of that PR jargon. They said they walk the walk and damn they walk the walk, they didnt make their game for any demographic in mind, they just MADE THE GAME, easy to get into, Hard to master was their motto, they even showed appreciation to their Fanbase and set up polls to see what the people would like, that still stand to this day.

all of that without sacrificing functionality or increasing limitations.....

and these guys aren't even Indie.

actually the lack of pre-order is more of a philisophical point than a technical one. Sure places will offer them pell mell when they get the sales rights, but from our POV, we are not interested as much in pre-orders for the sake of buffing up some quarter numbers...WHEN we do pre-orders there should be something special in it for the gamer, and if not, then it should wait till there is

Beth is MORE than capable of doing the same thing, its not even funny. I can understand....from a..Caring Dev kinda way point of view that you can say, we are bringing in a larger audience because we want them to experience the World of TES as well. I can understand that, but that is wishful thinking to believe thats whats going on a Beth, if your going to bring in a larger Audience, MARKET MORE, make it known, but don't clip the wings of the series so that it will be "accessible" PC gamers and console gamers didnt ask for the games to be simplified, and no one is asking for a chart graphs and Trig layout of a game.

Stop fing making the game simple.... people will adjust.....please......

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:36 pm

Elder Scrolls VI will be a multiplayer arena Beat 'Em Up, get 25 kills in a row, and you can win the round by calling in a tactical dragon!

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:55 am

NUMBERS, WE NEED MOAR NUMBERS!
HIGHER NUMBERS BETTER NUMBER! NUMBERS

Don't you know everybody plays RPGs because of NUMBERS!

If they remove NUMBERS they're ruining the game! NUMBERS, NUMBERS!

This here encapsulates the entire argument. The definition of an RPG is so undefined that anytime we take an RPG element out, people think it's turned into another genre. Skyrim is still an RPG because you can make choices in the world, go on quests to gain in game rewards, have a stats system (the skills), can manually select and increase your abilities (perks), and play a greater part in the world at large. We need to realize that RPGs are eventually going to get rid of all visible numbers, and operate solely on your playstyle. I think judging where you go and how you do it through gameplay is an amazing concept, and Skyrim is one of the first to really try that because of the developers at the reigns. Simplified does not mean dumbed down.

Oblivion was not worse because it had less skills, but the implementation of combat and story on a very raw basis. It was technical which bled through into gameplay, not because they removed more technical aspects.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:31 pm

(Don't understand the reasons behind locking an active thread just because there are "enough" messages in it to begin with, but what can you do?)

I still don't see how any of this or what has been discussed in the other thread actually has to do with the game's difficulty or dumbing it down. Especially when we can expect this game to allow us to adjust the difficulty freely to our own pleasing. People should stop behaving like playing a TES game mentally equaled inventing the aeroplane out of a dead fish and some brimstone. So some skills have been changed and are now two less in numbers, also two pieces of armor have been merged into one.

How does this dumb anything down? How was the game harder to play with them? Doesn't giving you more options - because options, they were - actually make things easier, if anything? Especially in a game that is all about freedom of how you want to play, so pretty much every style was playable successfully unless you really screwed up badly?

Granted, I never played the old TES games. Started with Morrowind. But I didn't consider it all that hard and certainly not more difficult than Oblivion. I don't expect this next game to be such a "casual game" as some here already seem to know it's going to be.

Personally, I would love for certain things to return, spears and completely, separately adjustable clothing and armor, for instance, but that's just for reasons of style, has nothing to do with making the game harder or harder to get into it or anything.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:59 pm

The game is so simplified that it has more features than Oblivion.

Lol RPG dorks. :rofl:

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:14 am

The game is so simplified that it has more features than Oblivion.

Lol RPG dorks. :rofl:

More features =/= make a complicated game.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:32 pm

...

No... you cannot compare TES to Sword of the Stars.

Completely different genre, completely different in a technical standpoint, completely different development idea, completely different... EVERYTHING.

And you know, if you compare it to the game it tries to emulate, Master of Orion, it is really simplified. Actually, Master of Orion is a really good example how complexity does not equal depth. The third game was overcomplicated in everything, so much that even the tutorial just said that it's better just to set everything to auto to sort itself out. Nobody liked it.

Sword of the Stars while it was simplified in a lot of areas, it was still just as deep and enjoyable as Master of Orion. It offered something a bit different.
Even though I just said do not compare the two, I just did it, but not in a technical manner. In the manner of "streamlining" they are similar.
Oh, I can also just bring up so many successful series that could be said that they've been "streamlined".

Again, more numbers do not make the game, or variables, or what you can name or not.
And everybody goes how it lost many features... like what? What is there that has been lost, that cannot be recreated in any manner?
People cry how entire playstyles are gone? Which ones?
What is that grave and important thing that extra armor slot gave us? What manner of gameplay you cannot do anymore, because the game just "cut it out"?

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:10 pm

wow........... so let me get this straight, you guys are pissed off because you think it has been over "simplified"? have you guys played the game yet? do one of you own some sort of time machine, and are posting from the future? the fact remains none of you have played the game yet, so how can you say it has been simplified? because armor has been merged? because there's no levation, M&R? because the word simplified was used in the Q&A? never mind the fact that you can now smith/ forge weapons & armor(which im sure crafting your own armor will let you customize its appearance) or from what it looks like, doing the best dragons ive ever seen ina game. or a persistent world that now acknowledges what your doing. a few things get taken out ( and from what it sounds like to add bigger and better things) and some of you are standing on a chair with a noose around your neck, carving," bethesda why",on your arm.

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:17 am

Gaining more sales, the word.

I've no doub't that Skyrim will be an amazing game and add to the series, no doub't at all. I just don't see the sense in all this "streamlining" what kind of excuse is "render more NPCS on screen" when the same amount of Detail would be present even if everything was seperate? but at the same time the devs are going to town with detail but there will be more NPC's? ok.

let me give an example of -MOVING FORWARD- without stepping on past games, its called expansion. theres is a space RTS, fairly old, about mid 2008 maybe? when they first came on stage. their ships werent of the epitome of graphics, but you had full 3D in the battle field and ships were segmented into 3 sections, and on those sections were turrets and wepaon mounts, and you could have dozens upon dozens of ships fighting at once with up to hundreds coming and dying over the course of the battle. it recieved 3 freaking expansion packs over the course of its life, and patches actually ADD content requested by the "minority" in their forums.

Now they are coming out with their second installment, the Graphics are six, the battlefields are expanded to include entire systems and tedious was streamlined (what was actually annoying) and the ship build system now includes the 3 sections, turrets, weapon mounts, MODULES and support components to the ships plus an upgraded combat system that doesnt just include ships exploding, in addition to that of the 3 ship sizes a 4th size was included, the smallest of the 3 was repurposed in a way that MADE SENSE and a whole ass load of other features WITHOUT cutting the content down or saying this is superflous. effectively they stated and proved that they aren't making the same game, boosting its graphics and slapping a two on it. completely new engine, not heavily modified or none of that PR jargon. They said they walk the walk and damn they walk the walk, they didnt make their game for any demographic in mind, they just MADE THE GAME, easy to get into, Hard to master was their motto, they even showed appreciation to their Fanbase and set up polls to see what the people would like, that still stand to this day.

all of that without sacrificing functionality or increasing limitations.....

and these guys aren't even Indie.

Beth is MORE than capable of doing the same thing, its not even funny. I can understand....from a..Caring Dev kinda way point of view that you can say, we are bringing in a larger audience because we want them to experience the World of TES as well. I can understand that, but that is wishful thinking to believe thats whats going on a Beth, if your going to bring in a larger Audience, MARKET MORE, make it known, but don't clip the wings of the series so that it will be "accessible" PC gamers and console gamers didnt ask for the games to be simplified, and no one is asking for a chart graphs and Trig layout of a game.

Stop fing making the game simple.... people will adjust.....please......

I agree and when Todd said "render more NPCS on screen" i was like ... :spotted owl:

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:40 pm

wow........... so let me get this straight, you guys are pissed off because you think it has been over "simplified"? have you guys played the game yet? do one of you own some sort of time machine, and are posting from the future? the fact remains none of you have played the game yet, so how can you say it has been simplified? because armor has been merged? because there's no levation, M&R? because the word simplified was used in the Q&A? never mind the fact that you can now smith/ forge weapons & armor(which im sure crafting your own armor will let you customize its appearance) or from what it looks like, doing the best dragons ive ever seen ina game. or a persistent world that now acknowledges what your doing. a few things get taken out ( and from what it sounds like to add bigger and better things) and some of you are standing on a chair with a noose around your neck, carving," bethesda why",on your arm.

+ 1

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:12 pm

Ah The Elder Scrolls, the only game on the planet where a good portion of its hardcoe fanbase is consistantly on its period.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:07 pm

Ah The Elder Scrolls, the only game on the planet where a good portion of its hardcoe fanbase is consistantly on its period.

And the fanboyze cannot seem to discuss any possible game issues without bashing those who bring them up.

The long-time TES fans actually care about the series so much that we have become a bit protective of it. I don't believe that Beth sees this as a bad thing.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:34 pm

And the fanboyze cannot seem to discuss any possible game issues without bashing those who bring them up.

The long-time TES fans actually care about the series so much that we have become a bit protective of it. I don't believe that Beth sees this as a bad thing.

You have a point there. But the only really distressing info for me so far was that the stupid fast travel system from OB is back.

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:23 am

Really? A second thread for this? :facepalm: Does this forum thrive on arguing?

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:59 pm

And the fanboyze cannot seem to discuss any possible game issues without bashing those who bring them up.

The long-time TES fans actually care about the series so much that we have become a bit protective of it. I don't believe that Beth sees this as a bad thing.

They don't see it as a bad thing.

I do believe that Beth has been doing this for along time, and they have stated multiple times that they actually do appreciate constructive criticism.

They keyword however is constructive. I see a lot of genuine criticism, mainly stemming from the successes and failures of Oblivion. But I don't feel that calling the game "over-simplified" is a valid thing to say as of right now, because no one has played it yet.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:12 pm

But I don't feel that calling the game "over-simplified" is a valid thing to say as of right now, because no one has played it yet.

It doesn't matter if no one has played the game yet. We know what we know and we can discuss what this may or may not mean for the game. For instance, I see them get rid of the class system and I think this implies a simpler game. And so on.

» Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:00 am

I totally agree with OP, and I've been thinking the same for some time now.

Not saying Skyrim won't be good. I'll play the hell out of it, and then the hell out of it some more with mods. That doesn't mean I like the general direction it's taking.
There are some great new things they are doing, but a lot of dumbing down as well that I don't approve of.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:14 pm

It doesn't matter if no one has played the game yet. We know what we know and we can discuss what this may or may not mean for the game. For instance, I see them get rid of the class system and I think this implies a simpler game. And so on.

A hands on experience is far more resounding than just visually exploring something. So yes, it does matter that no one has played the game.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:51 pm

This seems more of a "series" discussion than a Skyrim discussion. Moving it to the proper forum.

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:29 pm

Coming soon: Call of [insert province here]: Modern Warfare.
Key features:

One button combat system? No more struggling in combat just press 1 button and watch as your character defeat enemies!
No need to worry and fiddle with skills now skills are merged in one simple skill that levels up as you play!
Rapid Health Generation? No need to worry about health as now you can focus on endlessly slaughtering enemies!
Better quest locator now all you need to do is follow the bread crumbs and ghost to easily find where you need to go!
Simplified NPC interactions!
Simplified character customization now all cloths and armor have merged sets!
Universal Speed No need to focus on how fast you run as you and everyone is just as fast as you!
Simplified items No more pointless items such as cups clogging up your inventory!
No more gold when you kill enemies you get souls automatically added that you can use to buy anything with just as fans requested!
Home sweet home no need to run back and forth and worry about having to buy a home in every city now just pause the game select go home and you can instantly be in your one home!

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:59 pm

Coming soon: Call of [insert province here]: Modern Warfare.
Key features:

One button combat system? No more struggling in combat just press 1 button and watch as your character defeat enemies!
No need to worry and fiddle with skills now there merged in one simple skill that levels up as you play!
Rapid Health Generation? No need to worry about health as now you can focus on endlessly slaughtering enemies!
Better quest locator now all you need to do is follow the bread crumbs and ghost to easily find where you need to go!
Simplified NPC interactions!
Simplified character customization now all cloths and armor have merged sets!
Universal Speed No need to focus on how fast you run as you and everyone is just as fast as you!

I love these because they have so much real base...

» Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:56 pm

Coming soon: Call of [insert province here]: Modern Warfare.
Key features:

One button combat system? No more struggling in combat just press 1 button and watch as your character defeat enemies!
No need to worry and fiddle with skills now skills are merged in one simple skill that levels up as you play!
Rapid Health Generation? No need to worry about health as now you can focus on endlessly slaughtering enemies!
Better quest locator now all you need to do is follow the bread crumbs and ghost to easily find where you need to go!
Simplified NPC interactions!
Simplified character customization now all cloths and armor have merged sets!
Universal Speed No need to focus on how fast you run as you and everyone is just as fast as you!
Simplified items No more pointless items such as cups clogging up your inventory!
No more gold when you kill enemies you get souls automatically added that you can use to buy anything with just as fans requested!
Home sweet home no need to run back and forth and worry about having to buy a home in every city now just pause the game select go home and you can instantly be in your one home!

:(