Sure there was depth. Climbing for instance was redundant? Unarmored or spears were redundant? The spells that were removed from Dagger to OB were redundant? I dont think so.

[censored] go tell me that EVE online is better than super mario or castle crasher

It became redundant when they made a true 3D landscape game and level designers could give you acess to anywhere they wanted you dont realy need climbing because where you cant go designers didnt put anything anyway.

This skill became redundant in oblivion when the combat became realtime and you could just dodge the blows. basicaly unarmored was only your capacity to dodge in morrowind not how hard your skin is

give examples or else your argument wont be taken seriously

That's actually part of the reason they were so useful. While I think we'll be fine without certain attributes such as intelligence, there is still the issue of things like carry weight. There are two ways to address these through perks and skills alone:



Honestly, I'd rather have some neat numbers adding up to my character's carry weight in a way I can understand and plan out.

I think there is a direct relationship between number of weapon skills, and weapon variety. In Morrowind there is no doubt that there were plenty of weapons for each weapon skill. In Oblivion there were less weapons and mostly less variety. So I surely have no proof of it, other than the belief that no one would only have a handful of weapons for 1 skill, but its a hypothesis I'd be interested to see be tested.

Why are they limited into skills? So you have to train with the weapons, that restriction is part of it being an RPG. If 3 weapon skills is all thats needed, why separate them at all? Lets let every character be equally proficient with all weapons. Why have skills, they just get in the way in the begining anyway?
You draw the line somewhere, and mine is at a point that makes sense.

None of those things are redundant, they add depth and variety. Combat was always real time. I dont have to give examples to people that have actually played the games and they know who they are. When I hear someone say this or that was cut becasue it was redundant, they are just reciting what the previous newb said.

Lol if thats depth to you just dont buy skyrim you wont like it, it wont have what you call depth. and if combat before morrowind is what you call real time combat then i dont know what to tell you because its almost as real time as Final Fantasy 6 Combat is

I guess you never played an ES before, eh? Or at least before Morrow, since Dagger and Arena combat was real time. Plus those were just four quick examples of depth we've lost over the years.

i played daggerfall and its not what i call real time combat youre in front of the enemy and you swing the sword on both sides of the screen

It isn't about the connection between attributes and roleplaying, it is about the connection between attributes and character. A character can be a good swordsman capable of performing some impressive feats. However, a character's doing something and being good at it doesn't explain why he excels at it or why he is better at it than others. You will not find any Tyrion Lannister or Miles Vorkosigan or Captain Ahab or Frodo Baggins in the Elder Scrolls. For the most part, any real depth of character is in the player's mind alone. In the Elder Scrolls, every character is an able-bodied, able-minded archetype of a person who can, through dedication and hard work, achieve anything he wishes to achieve. Attributes interfere with that ideal, and eliminating that interference may be one of the reasons behind eliminating attributes. However weak or less-than-diddly attributes are in previous Elder Scrolls games, they still offer more depth of character than we are likely to find in Skyrim.

Climbing isn't redundant. Just because their isn't a road leading you somewhere doesn't mean you aren't supposed to. Thats such a linear game design, and terrible for a sandbox game. There should be multiple ways into an area. Does a thief steal from a castle by walking through the gate?

Combat was realtime in Morrowind, and it wasn't redundant there. What about the skill of absorbing blows with no armor? Thats unarmored, and its a real skill. People can train to recieve blows in such a way that their body nullifies most of the damage. A punch that can knock you out could cause someone of a similar size to stagger slightly.

How about levitation? Was that redundant, or did it interfere with the bad level design?

Plus Daggerfall was in true 3D and ES combat has always been real time.

Though Oblivion was the only game to not use dice rolls to determine whether or not you hit or if your attack either missed or was blocked.

Yeah, and it was all real time. But it was real time before. A dice roll doesnt make it turn based. So his point doesnt stand.

Unarmored doesn't have to mean your ability to dodge, it could be how effectively you can abssorb a physical blow with no armor. People do actually train in that, its a real skill...

true, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming his terms were crossed.

@boredvirulence, why on earth are you quoting me?

Hes going to need a lot more than some crossed terms to refute me though. Plus what Bored said. The fact is, is that they were not redundant. They all had their uses, especially depending on who your character is. His three "points" are all fallacious. Lets just say that they didnt have a use though for a second. A lot of things in ES games didnt have any use. We should get rid of most of the books now?

The point on dice rolls and its effect on the unarmored skill which according to Kenji Senpai was removed because of Oblivion being the first to have "real time" combat.
So its a bit of a stretch, but thats where the arguement about the "real time" combat goes back to, which you are comenting about...

Climbing wasn't, but it was buggy, hardly working, and nearly impossible to implement in today.
Unarmored was in Oblivion's combat system, as AC doesn't mean dodging anymore, there's Acrobatics for that.
Daggerfall spells removed were pretty much redundant.


Variety hardly adds anything when all the choices do the same thing.

I said 3D Landscape. truly shows you dont even take time to read other people arguments when they are in conflict with what you think

I'm saying the combat is not real time because the enemies just stand in front of you and hit you at a periodic rate. thats not real time thats crap.

plus its not because theres no climbing and that there is a path to everywhere the designers want you to go that its poor level desing for a sand box. if there 5-6 way to get in to a castle you still have as much choice as having a skill that tells you how good you stick to the walls. why not give the players to use their real skills and use their thumbs to get on the other side of a wall rather than make a skill check that chooses for you if you fall or suceed

Have I walked into the crossfire or something?


And this whole unaromred skill conversation has nothing to do with me.

Daggerfall was buggy in general, Unarmored did more than just dodging and the spells removed from Dagger and or Morrow to OB were not redundant. Do you know what the word redundant means? The spells had a purpose and had different strengths and weakness compared to similar spells, hence they were most certainly not redundant. again those are just a few examples from the depth we lost. Want to see the rest, go play Daggerfall.


No, you and I are just conversing. And the latter part of that post wasn't directed to you exactly, or at least I didnt mean for it to be. I should have separated it, thats my bad.

It's an RPG no matter how simplified it is. there may be only two melee skills but you still have the freedom to use whatever you want. It's not like it had multiplayer and there's leaderboards for who has the most kills with short blades or anything. :blink:

if you want to play it like that .... Slippery slope fallacy.

the fact is that skills like climbing or unarmored have been replaced by gameplay mechanics that couldnt be implemented in past game. plus for the argument of getting trained at receiving blows you cant get trained at getting swords or arrows go through your heart.

Simplicity for the sake of simplicity does not a good game make either.


^ This. People who have the attitude of "But they're exactly the saaaame!" make those of us with actual weapons training weep for humanity.


Problems with the animations do not change the fact that a stick is not the same as an axe.


And you think neon green font will get other people to take you seriously? I need sunglasses just to read this.


The problem with that is you're expecting people to do math. How dare you.