I don't mind level scaling for the most part, but it can be done and balanced better. If I had the CS, I woiuld try to mod the following idea's.

1. Leveled loot... I don't mind some leveled loot, but there must also be SOME non-leveled loot available and have it available anytime I.e. not exclusive quest rewards or placed only when a quest is active.

2. Split level's. I think the player level works fine for perks and skills....however, leveled enemies should level with the player based on a players "combat level". Basically, if a player chooses to power level smithing to 100 (assuming no other skills raised), he would be a player level 10, but since no combat skills leveled (ie one-hand, 2 hand, block, light/heavy armor, destruction, archery, etc.) He would be a combat level 1, meaning enemies would still be scaled to a level one character.

However, if a customer increases only one hand, and light armor each to level 20 and nothing else, he would be a player level 20, AND a combat level 20 and enemies would be on par with a level 20 character. Obviously there would have to be a slight rebalancing to how the enemies level, because non-combat skills still have a hand in how buff a player can be, but it would eliminate the problem of people having the problem of smithing a few things making their level increase, and now gets owned by mudcrabs (exageration) just for being a better smith.

I feel this is fairly simple change and wouldn't complicate anything as far as the player goes, because the "combat level" of a player would be completely hidden and the interface and leveling would still be exactly the same as it is now. The interface for the player and leveling for perks would still be exactly the same, the only noticable difference for the player would be in enemy difficulty.

Thoughts?

....better gear does increase your combat capability. That "level 10 (combat level 1, crafting level 20)" character would also have gotten ten levels of HP/Magicka/Stamina. Which also increases your combat capability.

Perhaps not in the same amounts as combat skills, but still...

:shrug:


(edit: Also, there's a different between a "Combat Level 10" character who put their perks into their combat skills and a "CL10" character who put their perks into their crafting skills and a "CL10" character who spread their perks around. It's a complex issue.)

Good point. So then an enemies health/stamina/magic would increase with the player level, but damage done by the same enemy would still only be leveled based on combat level. I should have been more specific when I stated that the leveling would have to be altered.

Level scaling must be out. It completly deminshes the point of leveling.

1. it's allready like that, find plenty of set stuff in random dungeons, true they probably have a quest tied to them but you don't need to activate in order to find them
2. don't max out smithing and expect to be good at combat
not exactly rocket surgery

I think it's OK personally

THERE ISN'T THAT MUCH LEVEL SCALING PEOPLE! STOP!

FFS, I find Iron Daggers and Glass Armor in dungeons all the time, and I'm Level 43 with Dragon Plate. So what the hell are you talking about? The only thing I see really level is potions!

How about when I did the Legend of Red Eagle? Why was his sword so weak if it leveled with me?

Just stop, you guys are driving me nuts. Some level scaling has to exist, but it barely does in this game. I can fight dungeons full of bandits that I one hit at level 43, that's not level scaling.

Level scaling? I've located glass/elven/dwarf gear at low levels, so your statement is false. There is scaling in there, but it's not the same as Oblivion.

1. There are powerful and unique items to find even at level1
2. Not a bad idea, but not needed either

I think beth finally got level scaling mostly right this time.

The problem is people are blatantly wrong with what they're saying. You can find pathetically low things at a high level, and strong things at a low level. If it was all level scaled, you'd find the stuff that matched your strength when you leveled up.

Instead people keep insisting this isn't the case, and they're wrong and won't shut up about it.

Loot is leveled. Take chillrend for example. If you find it at level 5, it has completely different stats compared to finding it at level 26.

So you think that getting killed by a bandit with 5 hits one min, and then leveling smithing a few times and allof a sudden that same bandit is one shotting you is acceptable? Okay....

You're wrong though. Anything that does level has a RANGE in which it levels. It may be 9-14 or 20-25.

I found Red Eagle's Bane at 30 something, and it did 29 damage. My sword at that time did 75. If it all leveled indefinetly, it would have done a lot more.

I can go fight Draugr and kill them in one hit at level 40+. I can kill any wild animal easily at a high level, regular dragons are easy. Only Ancient Dragons give me a problem now, and in 10 levels probably won't just like Elder Dragons used to.

The bandit you fight at 1, and at 30 will not level with you 99% of the time.

You can't really have a sand box type game without some form of level scaling. The only other option is zone-type leveling which means some areas will always be say lvl 1-5 no matter when your character gets there and others will be lvl 45-50 in the same fashion.


While you might get a good dose of the pucker factor wandering into a lvl 50 are at lvl 1.. "Oh Crap! Better not come back here for a while." You would be mighty ticked off in your level 50 character found that lvl 1-5 area late in the game.. You would likely feel cheated out of enjoying that content.

Another problem with non-scaled areas is that the game is no longer a true sandbox.. You would almost have to got to certain areas in a certain order in order to maintain any sense of level parity.

My feeling is that there should be a few places that are absolutely not scaled but locked in a defined range regardless of when you find it.. more towards that higher levels but maybe something in the mids as well.
Also in any given scaled area have a few surprises to keep you on your toes so that those areas don't get used up and stale after a few hours play. Maybe a dungeon or two with some non-scaled baddies or something that continues to scale when the rest of the area gets locked.

When I was leveling my Warrior my defense and offense went up quite a bit when I went from wearing all Steel armor and weapons to all Dwarven. It went went up even more when I enhanced all of it.
I skipped Orc and went to Ebony and again I saw a big increase in my combat strength. And when I finally made a set of heavy Dragon armor (I had lots of scales and no Daedric Hearts) I was a beast.

If Smithing didn't scale the difficulty of the game I could level Smithing to 100 at level 1 (if I had enough cash) and make some crazy gear. Same thing goes for Fortify enchants and potions.

But I can see Speech, Lockpicking and Pickpocket being outside the that scope.

Wherever i go i will know approximately what enemies i will meet and what loot i will get since it scales too. I've completed almost every single hole/cave/ruin in the game the first time entered them without any hassle. Also i could almost guess what loot quality i would get, more or less, according to my level - the only thing that was changed was the random enchantments. If i went at level 10 i would find bandits if i went at 20 i would find thugs if i went at 30 i would find highwaymen and at 40 i would find marauders. Same with draugrs, mages and almost everything else in the game.

Game does pop some lvl 1 bandits though along with the upgraded versions so that you feel that you have gained something in all these levels. My main problem though is lack of challenge/danger. As i mentioned earlier everything was predictable more or less. And loot scaling is THERE. There is a formula in the files, if you can read them check it. The formula is smth like that - random loot depending 0.4x-1x of your level.



Yea this happens because blacksmithing is raised incredibly easily. If it didn't level up with iron daggers or leather bracers all the way to 100 (which is dumb) this would work.

It has a range, as I stated but it won't level from 1 to 50. I can't predict what I find half the time and I've been in most of the dungeons. I opened a chest last night that had Scaled Bracers and an Iron Sword. The Holgeir quest gave me their weak, weak sword. Red Eagle's sword? Super weak. All animals I fight? Easy as pie now. Elder Dragons that were tough at 30? Easy now.

So if all loot scales, why am I constantly finding weak as hell stuff from either quests or just random loot? I'll rarely find an Ebony Shield, but guess what? I'm using stronger armor than that now. I found Daedric weapons at level 20, on and on.

you realize practically ever ES game including Morrowind had level scaling

If these forums are any indication the big problem with scaling is the freedom of choice. I like the way the game works. Bad guys do scale to some extent but what would be considered a low level area they do get slightly stronger but you will eventually 1-shot most of them. Back to my original comment the freedom of choice. I figure Beth balanced the game more toward a combat playstyle.

Now you might want to argue and say you should be able to do what you want to be successful. Think of it this way, there are 3 basic classes: mage, warrior, thief. You are in a world completely filled with bad guys and at any moment you could have a bear bite you in the ass or have a dragon drop on your head. Not to mention when you get a quest and are sent out into the world to complete it you will more often than not have to fight something. Crafting is designed to compliment your Class not replace it.

Let me put it this way. If you are wearing Heavy armor and carrying a sword and shield and have all your perk points in enchanting or smithing or alch(or all of them), are you a warrior? The answer is: No, you are not a warrior. You are a classless character dressed like a warrior.

It's not the companies fault that you made a character and didn't give it a class.

This is a terrible idea. Smithing is very strong in this game, that person with 100 smithing with no combat skills will be stronger than the person with low combat training, and you want the 100 smithing person to have weak enemies?

I do agree with the scaled loot though, for thieves guild/DB, the armor should be the same whatever level so you don't miss out. Or they could have a system where the item levels with your level, you shouldn't miss out on good armor just because your a low level when you want to do that questline.

There is another way. A chance based system where a hard dungeon set to level 25-50 only spawns level 50 content with a 3% chance. A bear only appears based on a small chance of 2% in the forest area and %30 chance in its inn. There can be a phase to deviate this rates randomly and cycles to schedule them. These chances are set via estimated populations and geographic features. Even weather type must be a factor for spawn chances.

And that is just a small part that I can think of that can change the spawn rates. I mean, a level number is the last thing I would use to calculate those rates. A level number to create a living breathing world. Lots of people can see the problem here, I just wished more people could see it too.

Yeah, so more like real world, not static or zoned. Radiant story can deal with the character appropriate content. Also AI can be developed to mimic the shyness or aggressiveness of the creatures. The link between player level and game world must be broken for a real living breathing world. I find a level scaled world to be completely immersion breaking(and even game breaking for developing characters).. That kind of challenge curve doesn't fit open worlds but linear games with lacking content. If we are gonna talk about non-linearity, challenge must be non-linear too.


There are over 1000 NPCs in Morrowind. They are all unique. No scaling. Morrowind spawns some high level creatures for high level characters but that is only a small percent of the game world and they are all unique too, they don't scale either. While that is better than Oblivion, it is also wrong if you understand the situation. As much as I like Morrowind, it would be better if that was changed for a more believable world(I mod it myself with level cap and more spawns for low levels. Cliffracer population and diseased creatures were the only problems in that system.). It is not like I wasn't being destroyed at low levels, so being destroyed by a winged twilight wouldn't change a thing. With the new limited leveling system, the end game challenge problem can be addressed too without level scaling.

My copy must be broken because I haven't seen anything better than a steel sword before my current level 20 thief (non-quest related). To be honest, the only thing outside of steel and iron weapons I've come across randomly is a few orcish arrows on a bandit. Everything else was a quest reward (chillrend for example and it's levelled).

Go read the UESP Wiki and see the Leveled Items section. Not many are in there, and Chillrend is one of them.

I found strong stuff below my level, and weak stuff above my level. Most common items don't level with you either, an Ebony Shield at 20 won't have more defense than one at 50.

Unfortunately some people who haven't experienced other ways except level scaling, just refuse to use their common sense and believe it's the only solution. They observe completely irrelevant games which have no connection at all with a real rpg (like wow or other mmorpgs) and thing that it's either scaling or zoning. It's not (like you very well describe). I am certain that the same players would enjoy a semi-static but well implemented world a lot more than the current one. In a living breathing world challenge is not meant to be static as it is now (save for a handful of exceptions).

Some is leveled others is not. Like the dragon priest mask.

I wish that ALL unique loot had its stats unaffected by your level that is the way it should be.

I also wish areas in this game was more dangerous to venture into than others. Where there is a real threat from any creature you come across.

Bethesda did better with scaling this time around, but it can still be improved. At least its a better design that Oblivions disastrous level scaling design.

That bolded part is how it works, everyone knows this. Plenty of places are too hard to go into at certain levels.