i'm a liottle unsure as to Sithis relation to vampires. does he accept them? tolerate them? despise them? I mean on one hand we have Vicenti in the Broth erhood but on the other hand we have the events documented in Greywins Journal. and while i'm on that topic is Greywin a Dunmer name? or a Breton name or what?

sithis doesn't even know what a vampire is, much less harbor emotions for them

Sithis is nothing more than a primordial force, think of him as if you were you worship gravity. You can worship gravity and make daily offerings by dropping stuff, but gravity won't recognize or really care you dropped stuff for it.

meh i always had a different idea of Sithis that though it is more of a force it can take for m as it pleases (see Vile Lair plugin) this sort of applies to any god or being for example Sheogorath represents madness. madness is a co ncept, an idea or a force. also consider Mephala who we know does not have a set form but can take one as it desires

Suggestions, don't base Sithis off of what was done in OB. Just read the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml

so what your saying is Oblivions depictions have no foothold in canon whatsoever? I don't get it Oblivions contributions have to have SOME credence to them

What I am saying is that believing a bunch of crazy, psychotic killers is not a good basis, and leaves you incredibly gullible. The only thing I see Oblivion doing with Sithis is confusing new comers by making him think he's some Outer God from Lovecraft and demands bloody murder. Melphala is a better and more likely candidate of whose been controlling the DB.

Again, try to worship gravity, it's practically the same thing as trying to worship Sithis.

I like to work with the idea that Sithis is Mephala trying to confuse its followers. we already know Mephala has a tendency to take different forms but also you ahve to give a reaol life context to this. somewhere out there there is a god of Gravity. i've also speculated that Mephala is a being closer to Sithis created as a perconefication or mediator to communicate with Muundus

Greywin sounds like a Breton name.

I personally see Sithis as just what Hellmouth said: A Primordial Force.
But I at the same time see Sithis as a deity due to it's worshippers.

I agree about the Mephala thing especially. I strongly believe that Mephala is the deity who impersonates the Night Mother and represents "Sithis". It makes sense if you keep in mind the DB split off from the Mephala-worshiping Morag Tong.

Exactly!

I thought that the Murdering side of the DB was led by the nightmother, or Maphalia, and their religion is a messed up worship of Shor (Aedra are what you think they are)

Indeed, the Sithis that the DB try to worship, the one who makes blessings appear at their shrines, hears the Night Mother prayers, gives the Listener the names, and powers the ghost lady under the statue is all speculated to be Mephala messing with her followers. Unfortunately, the metaphor only goes so far, Sithis is not actually responsible for gravity. That is probably Lorkhan/Shor, Sithis is the primordial state of change, the void, Is-Not, Padomay, etc. The opposing force being stasis, or Anu, which together created the gray maybe of the Aurbis, in which all things are (the Aetherius, Oblivion, the Aedric planes, etc.)

While Lorkhan and Mephala might have close ties with Sithis, probably being two of the most Padomaic gods out there, they are not the actual Padomay. I'm not totally clear on the difference between Sithis and Padomay, it might just be two names for the same thing, but I'll need a second opinion on that one. Thus those two are responsible for the biggest forms of change, Lorkhan changed everything by creating Mundus, and Mephala's realm is all about stirring up change. From Vivec and Mephala:



Vivec (who is the anticipation of Mephala) was a major point of change, disrupting the stasis once again, showing Mephala's padomaic nature. The Morag Tong did the same thing when they killed the Potentate, and then they themselves erupted into change and chaos when the Brotherhood branched off. So basically all of Mephala's weird motivation is based on a natural urge to disrupt the complacent order of things. Lorkhan is much the same, his avatar (Pelinal) changed the world from the Ayleid city states to the Imperial Empire we know today.

So, while they share Padomaic traits, this does not mean that they are direct manifestations or followers of Sithis. But in the end a lack of canon information causes the trail to stop cold after all the racial bias. Perhaps the Hist know?



I'm not entirely sure where you got Shor from, as the only time I see him with the Dark Brotherhood is in the statue. And though we cannot discount its influence, Grewyn is by no means a viable source of canon information, being a crazy vampire assassin who was killed by the Dark Brotherhood. He might have thought that Sithis/Mephala took the form of a hole-in-his-heart mummy, and in his visions Mephala very well might have shown herself as just that, but that doesn't give us a base to make reliable assumptions. I admit Shor is tied in there with Mephala, as they are both very Padomaic, but I can't find anywhere linking the two conclusively, especially since Mephala didn't participate in creation with him.

the whole hole-in-his-heart mummy thing is a bit misleading. i saw the statue more as a bunch of clothing and bandages wrapped around what could very well be nothing. in essence nothing mkaing use of something to take somtheing resembling a form. think more along the lines of the "invisible man who lacked a physical appearence in this case but use4d all that clothing and bandages to represent one (except in this case it would represent form and appearence)

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1075452-hermaeus-mora/

th is discussion illustrates my point perfectly on how all et'Ada are just concepts like gravity you worship Akatosh then you worship Time. you follow Sheogorath then you follow madness you follow Sithis then tyou follwo this primordial idea if the other "concepts" can take form who's to say Sithis can't do the same?

First off, you took my anology WAY TOO FAR, and you are coming to the wrong conclusions. It was only to illustrate a point, not be used in the way you are.
Okay, going to attempt to use another anology. Think of the worship with the aedra and daedra as the worship of the Greek Gods. The Greeks didn't worship the sea, they worshiped Posiden. What you are trying, at least the impression I am getting, is that you are trying to equate the worship of Posiden with the worship of entropy to the nth degree.

First off, you took my anology WAY TOO FAR, and you are coming to the wrong conclusions. It was only to illustrate a point, not be used in the way you are. To point out a major flaw is to assume Sithis is an et'Ada when he is NOT an et'Ada.

Okay, going to attempt to use another anology. Think of the worship with the aedra and daedra as the worship of the Greek Gods. The Greeks didn't worship the sea, they worshiped Posiden. What you are trying, at least the impression I am getting, is that you are trying to equate the worship of Posiden with the worship of the sea. The sea doesn't care if it receives fruits, sacrifices, or what have you, it's going to continue to splash around and be a sea. You can't remove the sea, the sea is always there or something.

When looking at the whole Anu-Padomay/Auriel-Sithis thing, think of it this way: Anu = 1and Padomay = 0 (binary), Anu = yes and Padomay = no, Anu = Stasis and Padomay = chaos, etc. They are extreme forces without form, and when combined we get a mixture of both, giving variables instead of extremes. The et'Ada are variables and beings of that interplay between Anu and Padomay.

The strong argument against Sithis notes that Sithis with Anuiel, Padomay with Anu, Serpent with Bird etc,etc, created the interplay that we experience as the Aurbis. Their interaction is what shapes everything. As such, because their interaction is everything we can't perceive them individually, we can't ascribe any motivation to either one without having to take into account that the appearance of any expression of such a motive is also influenced by the other.

The difference with the et'Ada is that they were created by the interplay of Sithis and Anuiel. Where the et'Ada are individual ideas, Anuiel is the aggregate of every idea where as Sithis is the aggregate of every limitation. It's elaborated on in the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml.

Now without going into all the details. The Sithis of the Monomyth does not resemble the Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood. The latter is degeneration of the original philosophy described in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml. The actuall Dreadfather is Lorkhan as illustrated by the Statue of Sithis, a grim reaper trapped in a cage of bones. Much like Lorkhan trapped in Nirn by the Earthbones for brining mortality back to the Aurbis.
Considering their spheres, Mehapla (Secret Murder) and Lorkhan (Mortality, Change, Action) they make a perfect as Night Mother and Dread Father giving birth to the concept of Assassination in the form of the Darkbrotherhood.

I can always depend on you, proweler, to say what I wanted to say, or give much better clarification.

actually the Mephala / Lorkhan thing makes a lot of sense. I’ll have to look more in to Lorkhan as he seems to be the next closest thing from a topic i read on the forum. that could be considered a physical representation of Sithis I hereby withdraw my argument though it leaves the question of where Lorkhan stands on vampires and if it was all in Greywins Head and it also reminds me of the question of a "Serpent God of Entropy" I read about on UESP is there anything even remotely close to this in the lore? and apart from that what about the Hist beliefs is there anything really concrete on them? Are the Hist worshipping Lorkhan too? This whole thing gets WAAAY too confusing


hm looking here

http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sithis.shtml

and i can't be sure how much credence this text holds in the scheme of the Monomyth but it almost seems that Lorkhan serves as a sort of representation or personification of Sithis, almost like a mascot representing an entity that has no defined shape and cons ideirng Lorkhans duel nature is it not possible that he could be both representing Sithis and the Night Mother? Or am I talking nonsense? Furthermore what about the possibility that Lorkhan instead serves as a sort of medium ore middle man between Sithis and Muundus

That's a good name for Sithis, as he with Anuiel form the "closed system," here named the Aurbis:
Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

Yes, Lorkhan is Sithis' soul, if you are so inclined. It's there in the Monomyth and in Sithis.

but readign the Monomyth yeilds somthign else that Aurbis is the Soul of the Void am i missing somthign here? if Aurbis is the Soul then Lorkhan is the body?

Aurbis is the soul of Anuiel with Sithis.

sot hat would make Aurbis the soul of both opposing forces while making Lorkhan the soul of Sithis. makes sense. really seems to work looking at Altmer and Redgard myth

That really does make sense.

If I may return to the original question, it would appear that Sithis accepts vampires as his acolytes as he does all other races. It has been said elsewhere that the Brotherhood is the only non racist organisation in Tamriel. All are welcome, so long as they hold reverence for Sithis, and uphold the Tenets.

It would appear that Vicente survived the purge of the Crimson Scars as he did not ally himself to them. Their crime was in breaking the Tenets, not in being vampires. To wish to kill your Brethren would be crime enough to unleash the Second Purification, as it may well have been. As a loyal son of Sithis, Vicente would have been spared.

actually Greywin mentioned that after a while Sithis stopped speeking to him and cites his blood drinking ways as the cause. which is why they have the font of renewel