Since it is believed that belief shapes Mundus and the beliefs of the Dark Brotherhood have been thinking of Sithis as their father for a very long time, I think we have another one of those multiple aspect deities/beings. There is Sithis, the Primordial force that was the driving force of creation also known as chaos. And then there is the Sithis, as envisioned by the Dark Brotherhood. A god of death so to speak. There is probably a third aspect of Sithis as well. The one that the Hist believe in. Though I have no idea how they view him.

This could be complete lunacy but this may or may not be in of itself evidence of how the belief=reality system works. Seeing as how there was a Sithis shrine in Oblivion from the Deepscorn Hollow DLC that actually bestowed powers on you and the font of renewal which seems tied to that can give or remove Daedric curses(Vampirism), I think this may be a semi-accurate theory.

Then again I am probably spouting what some of you have already theorized.

Sithis is chaos, the unstoppable object, etc. This Hist also acknowledge this, and it's mentioned enough times in the Monomyth to get the idea. Pretty sure even the Yokudans, which call this "The Hum."

What the Dark Brotherhood believes in a completely warped idea of what Sithis is. At best, they're mistaking him for Lorkhan, for he is the god of space, of which defines and limits. And as such, they worship this 'limit' aspect by limiting the life of mortals (i.e. killing them). At worst, they're all on a bunch of skooma, and burned out their brains too horrifically

In all honesty, the whole Sithis [censored] needs to be stopped immediately, and they should go back to Melphala, as the Dark Brotherhood was founded by Morag Tong agents who were sick on working only in Morrowind and only for Great House nobles of Morrowind. [censored], the only time we got acknowledge of this was in Daggerfall, because at least they know their heritage more than the [censored] ups in Cyrodiil. Even the MW guys paid respects towards 'The Night Mother' at the highest level, not this stupid "WE SPILL BLUUD FOR SITHISSSSSS!!!!" [censored].

Well I know what Sithis is, but I was wondering if it was possible that beliefs could have created a new version of it like how it happened with Auri-El and Alduin being combined into Akatosh by St. Alessia.

Side note here. Isn't Akatosh related to Anu anyways? Was Lorkhan in the same relationship to Padomay/Sithis as Anuiel was to Anu? Could Lorkhan in fact be exactly what they are worshiping albeit under a different name?

Waits patiently for Hellmouth to explain how very wrong I am....

Btw big fan of the MT and would love to dismantle that organization again. (i.e. Oblivion). The Sithis crap does get annoying. Especially with all the lore avoiding DB fans there are that are constantly screaming out, "For Sithis!!!! Derp!"

Sithis is more of a universal force, not a god. Then again, coked up assassins, who also take hits of meth right after a kill shouldn't be your #1 source.

Correct.
With Anu, Auriel is the soul of Anu, and The Time God is the soul of the soul of Anu. Same deal with The Space God in relation to Padomay. And yeah, that's what I was getting at with the whole "they're mistaking Lorkhan as Sithis." Though, I'd like it if proweler would come in and explain that line of thought, as that's what he came up with, and I'm just half assing.

I'm not a Mr. Grumpy Pants all the time. Just mostly.

I like the Dark Brotherhood, but I like the Daggerfall and Morrowind DB chapters. The one in Daggerfall is especially awesome, as the quest giver tries to throw in some dark humor into the equation, but also an assassin at heart, not a coked up meth head killer.

No.

Emil Pagliarulo makes Twilight look like bloody War And Peace.

It's best to ignore him.

*Disclaimer: Tranquility Lane in Fallout 3 is the sole exception.

Lol, I was taking a shot in the dark to understand the whole concept there. I saw connections but was not sure of it so I thought I stood a good chance of being wrong. If you are a Mr. Grumpy Pants, you are one in one of the best kinds of ways lol. Lopsided compliment though.

I never played Daggerfell. At the time it came out I was very young(6) and was into the Might and Magic series. I started with Morrowind though so I can understand the Morrowinds chapter a bit. Even though we never got a chance to do quests for them. They seemed more...legitimate in Morrowind. The DB in Oblivion was full of generic assassin concepts. The best part was the quest-line itself and the shadow-scale lore included in the secondary quest-line.

You know, the elder scrolls website has Daggerfall and Arena downloadable for free. Only issue is, you need to play around with a DOS program, but there are instructions provided.

I am aware, but I don't have the time for wither game really. My time is at a premium these days as I am at college, have a job and a gf lol.

Anu - Anuiel - Auri'el


Padomay - Sithis - Lorkhan

You know, there is something to be said about how the worship and beliefs of mortals shape and change the gods themselves. Sithis might have been one thing before the Dark Brotherhood came along, but their deification of [him] and personification of [him] might have actually transformed Sithis into much more of a deity than just a force of chaos. The Dark Brotherhood might be full of crazies, but that doesn't make them any less right. At least in the metaphysics of Tamriel.

nvm

The first question is did they even KNOW who they were worshiping?

Nutjobs could mistake Mephala for Sithis...

Knowing has nothing to do with it. It is all about belief.

I don't think they really view Sithis as a thinking entity anymore than Altmer believe that http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth-altmeri-heart-world is capable of replacing the Aeadra and giving Auriel weapons. Or http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-sithis is capable of telling Lorkhan to destroy the world.

In fact, Sithis sounds like something the DB would say.

Knowing has everything to do with it...you have to identify what it is you think you are directing your prayers to first before those prayers can have any effect on the deity.


If you mistakenly believe you are communing with Lorkhan while in actual fact it is Mephala, your beliefs will change Mephala NOT Lorkhan

That sounds like the sort of trick Mephala could play.

All gods are primordial forces embodied, when you get right down to it. Anu and Padomay are stasis and change embodied, Dagon is destruction, Mara is motherliness. Where Sithis gets funny is that he is being used as a stand-in god of death when that was never his responsibility. So I don't know if he does ever begin to encroach on Arkay's business or not, since that sphere is already filled. It's not like Shezzarines, who are becoming a god who is missing.

Is it really that farfetched for a rep of Chaos to also be known as a "god" of "death". (my words).

While an unreliable source, it's easier for me to get a better grasp on the subject of Sithis of which I know relatively nothing... According to UESP, the DB say he was huge black nothingness that existed before creation. This seems to suggest they're aware of who or what Sithis really is.

Vincente states "Sithis is no Daedra, and dwells not in the realm of Oblivion. No, Sithis is something altogether... different." and describes him as "the darkness of time immemorial." Lucien, on the same hand, describes Sithis in what I'd consider similar to Vincente and also what falls in line with what Sithis truly is, "a perfect, cloudless midnight, cold as winter ice and shrouded in shadow." They, the DB, also refers to him as "The Void."

From what I can tell from my limited research, they don't seem to known much of him (compared to others), as their information is also limited. That being said, they do obviously have much to say regarding him, but nothing from what I've seen so far that would indicate they think he is anything other than a rep of Chaos, nothingness. They also do not kill according to beliefs, morals, rules, laws, or anything else. They kill whoever they are told by the Night Mother/Listener. So in this, it also speaks about how they feel regarding Sithis, in that the Nothingness cannot be bothered by that. The only thing close in relevance to their killing and Sithis would be a figure of speech of returning the targets to chaos/nothing/death. I wouldn't think it'd be farfetched for them to still worship the embodiment of nothingness, and still have it different from a deity. Similarly, there is Chaos in the Greek mythos, which may have been worshiped to some extent, even though Chaos in Greek mythology isn't exactly nothing.

Either way, it proposes this question - How can Sithis exist if he is nothing? Something can't be nothing, and nothing can't be something, right? Or is nothing something? It makes my head hurt like trying to understand the same principles in many high physics theories and hypotheses where we vaguely understand something or may know what it is, but simply do not understand it at all. But damn... if I don't love trying to wrap my head around it.

Am I being an idiot and misunderstanding and misstating? Please correct me.

Maybe it is better to say Sithis is another name for nothing. Nothing is nothing in other words. At least from the way you seem to be perceiving Sithis.

Sithis is the Nothing (capital important) before there was a Something to contrast it to.

But if Sithis was before Something, then there wasn't nothing before Something but something before Something. What is Nothing (note the capital here) then? You cannot say Nothing is nothing, because it's obviously something if it came before or has a name. And nothing is always something, it's the absence of everything. But is Nothing/Sithis the absence of everything or just everything but Something?

I am confusing myself so much... someone please slap me.

:slap:

Thank you, sir! May I have another?!

Lol but seriously, is there any way to rationally explain Sithis instead of stating "Nothing", because that can mean anything when you talk about Something coming after. It's like the god debate, or even the big bang debates (about what preceded). And according to some sources, Sithis is "a dynamic force of chaos from which all change springs. Sithis does not simply "cause" things to change. Sithis is change, and his very existence alters the stasis of Anu. The interaction of these two beings spawned the original divine spirits, from which the Aedra and Daedra would eventually derive. " So then Sithis isn't nothing, but all things in motion, while Anu is all things in stasis? And given that this is TES, these two entities cannot be theoretical, but literal, right? So... Again, this is like the metaphysics crap which hurts, lol.

That's...not how the myths describe him. Saying he's "the void" or "The Nothing" is closer to Padomay than Sithis. Most myths paint him more as an active force, rather than NOTHING. Sithis was the finger that pushes the big red button that starts the machine, the winds that move the sea, and so on and so forth.

And it's better to describe Anuel as Stasis.

Think of it as this, you have the most simple of polar points, Padomay and Anu, or IS-NOT and IS, 0 and infinity

Then you get their souls, Sithis and Anuel, or Chaos and Stasis

Then you get the soul of the soul, The Space God and The Time God.

As usual, I guess we need to leave it up ProwProw (Oh, how I bet he'll hate that, lol.), Hellmouth, or Lady N to fix things. They're my favourites, anyways. I do tend to get told off by Lady N a bit. Masochistic much?

But thanks, seriously, Hellmouth. That actually solves it for me, too.

Also, never take religious teachings on coked up meth heads who also like to rub the blood of their victims on themselves.