I'm pretty sure he's just saying he doesn't notice people's sixual preferences as much as he notices weight, age, and disabilities.

Yeah. Bethesda has to care about those people. I don't care about them in the least.


And if they change clothes they end up skinny. And their animations are still set for skinny people, so they clip through their own bodies.

Like I said, fat suits are really easy. If the NPC will never change clothes you don't even need the extra races unless you want the clothing to be lootable.

Doing it right is a lot more complicated.

That's pretty damn harsh.

Maybe, only way to know is for him to come back and clarify. I think he's saying that he doesn't notice, and probably doesn't care to notice. I even talked about people hiding their sixual identities. But if Bethesda's aim is truly to create an enriched world that is totally immersive then they should highly consider adding these ideas. Just because it offends is no reason to leave it out. I think part of the experience is to be offended, as well as fascinated and awe-struck.

(EDIT) off topic but your skyrim piano cover is awesome. i play piano as well. kudos.

And we all know that every parent that buys their kid a videogame reads and understands the ratings that are located on the box right? How many millions of kids are playing CoD and Halo right now? Games that are clearly maked "M."

All it would take is some "concerned parent" to walk in on their kid playing Skyrim and see a cross-dressing necrophiliac Argonian and go all ape-[censored] and raise a huge PR nightmare for Bethesda.

If they could recognize a cross-dressing Argonian I'd be impressed. And the necrophiliacs always seem to be Dunmer.

How does said parent know that the Argonian is a necrophiliac, though? No one here's proposing explicit sixual content.

Who said anything about having cross dressers?? And do you remember GTA IV: The Balad of Gay Tony? That expansion pack sold like crazy even with "GAY" all in the name. An expansion who had you running around doing missions for your gay boss who ran not only a straight club that you could get DRUNK in, but also a GAY CLUB. I'd venture to guess that parent's are not so concerned about homosixuality in games. Again, your argument is null.

Also on the necrophiliac thing. Wtf? Nobody is suggesting any explicit sixual content especially involving corpses. The thread only suggests that various sixual preferences be represented. We all remember how the Hot Coffee thing blew up for Rockstar. We're not asking for anything like that.

No it is not. They don't end up skinny if they change clothes. You control that... and the animations, if you haven't noticed, they clip and deform no matter what.

All I can think of regarding your discussion is whether or not they include jiggle physics, and if they do I DEMAND that any beer bellyd man would have it implemented. That would make the process harder from a technical standpoint though.

And do you remember the negetaive publicity that was raised over the love scenes in Mass Effect 1? Your argument is null.

Clothing completely replaces the body mesh. Putting unaltered clothing on a fat person will make them skinny, same as putting fat clothing on a skinny person.

There is a specific reason why someone started messing with changing bone sizes to simulate different body shapes.

How is this even an issue?
Is it bethesda's responsibility to ensure biggots are not offended?

Should they take out redguards so as not to offend the white supremacists?

I fail to see why if someone who lives today in our modern culture, with all the education available, and still unaccountably has a discriminating, repressive and hurtful opinion over something so trivial as this is to what makes a good person should be catered to.
It is those kind of opinions that are in the wrong, not people that realise human love isnt as simple as boy meets girl.

If anything, reading this thread only furthered my belief that a realistic portrayal of human romance is a neccesity, not simply optional. How many people are there that post silly things like 'i never see a gay dude' or 'its ok by me, but they shouldnt be too flamboyant.'
People fear the unknown. Not including LGB people furthers stereotypes, false assumptions and unfamiliarity with the subject.

Just the fact that there are people out there who have so little knowledge and understanding about the subject makes it clear the fight for emancipation is not over yet. I wish I lived in a world where people no longer said things like 'dont get me wrong, some of my best friends are gay, but..'
It is bad enough that irl we often have to hide to be accepted, those kind of statements are actually hurtful.

If Skyrim NPC's have romantic relations with each other, I would like to see a few gay ones. It would make me and people like me feel included and enhance our immersion.
This is not about 'representing' or some of the other silly things Ive seen mentioned.
Its an affirmation that, you know, I exist.

Get Daggerfall and start reading the books (The Real Barenziah is just one).

One of the Nine Divines is Dibella, goddess of beauty (in all forms). So there is plenty of pre-existing support in the lore for sixual diversity.

I think the problem people have is separating the concepts of 'being something' and 'doing something about it'. Anyone who has ever keyframed knows that two figures in intimate range contact (be it six or pulling each other's hair out) is incredibly hard to do. Not do well, just do. So the whole idea of any kind of virtual nookie occurring in a game environment like TES pretty much has to be limited to the good old reliable "And the moon went behind a cloud...". However, the 'being something' -could- add to the quest structure greatly, =if implemented intelligently=. One of the best sources of info from the shady side has always been prosttutes (which is a lifestyle choice). Same six couples would doubtlessly be looked upon very differently by different cultures and races....which could expand plot possibilities considerably. As an example: Nords don't hold with MM pairings, but FF pairings aren't considered to be 'real six', and so don't count. Imperials could be like Greeks or Romans; Males of status could have slave boys as body servants, females could be free to do as they choose -until they marry-, at which point they have to cleave unto their husband. The Khajit may have very strict concepts, and those who do not fit are driven out.....which could mean that the majority of Khajit most humans meet are either gay or neuters. Which would give a skewed concept of Elsewyr. Dunmer may actually have to explore both kinds of relationships in youth, before committing to one path or another (basically making those who are bi the 'wierdos'). Bosmer may have an uber commune going....just enough remembered to avoid breeding to closely, but other than that, whowhenwherewhyhowmany is an open question and nothing to even comment on. The Altmer may prove to have a matrilineal society, and the cultural limits are all on the males (which could make the nigh onto irresistable to females abroad; the lure of the unattainable). Orcs could be as simple as whoever is strongest does what they want, to having a surpisingly rich social culture that the surface masks.

That is just an off the cuff list of potential quest modifiers.

The down side is that it has to be done in an =advlt= fashion. And that doesn't mean playing Voyeur. Rules would have to be crafted that fit each race. The strength of feeling regarding this would have to be coded, with specific instances where the NPC goes against their cultures attitudes. Some slang would have to be created, and for each culture. I would avoid any currently used term, as they are like most sixual terms in use, and tainted with at least some derrogatory emphasis. Then you would have to be willing to deal with the results if a group from Culture A who hates (let's call lisbians Dibella's Sisters) DS's caught a couple, or part of a couple, out at just the wrong time. You'd have to either deal with it, or hardcode a blocker to prevent losing that NPC (or arrange a trigger so that this can only happen when you are nearby to dash to the rescue). As well as coding limiters to prevent too much flirting that might squick the player (and who decides what is too much, as tolerance levels vary. A lot).

I think it would be a delight to have this kind of depth to the NPC and AI structures. But it would take a lot of programming time and effort to build it (on the other hand, once you -had- it , you could reuse the module over and over again.....).

With current PC hardware, the power is there for the figure meshes and the AI's to do it. Current consoles couldn't handle it fully. That in itself probably means nothing like this will ever be done.....but one can dream.....

Yes, have all sixual diversities in Skyrim. It would enrich things. It would enrich things just like having an option to be able to defecate and urinate in the game that could be turned on or off (like the first post of this topic brings up having to 'go to the bathroom'). I think games should specifically target things that haven't been done prominently in gaming and do them. This expands the medium and will hopefully contribute to the evolution of consciousness to where things are less restricted by positive conditioning instead of negative and fear-based conditioning.

Ah! You are talking about Talking Toaster's effort. That is where your statements are coming from. I thought you were hands-on familiar with 3D modeling and actual mod creation through GECK... my bad.

I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but Fallout New Vegas.

They did it right. Arcade and Veronica? Gay and lisbian, respectively, yet it was not their defining characteristic nor were they in anyway stereotypes. If you were to describe their characters,their motivations, their personalities etc etc, you wouldn't even need to mention their sixuality because it does not define them. I think that was a very interesting way to handle it. Hell, you could play the entire game with one of them as a companion without even knowing, and Arcade is pretty badass (unlike your stereotypical gay man, who is much more feminine)

I think it would be perfectly fine to include sixual diversity, as long as it is handled in a similar way to New Vegas.

And as far as interracial goes, there had that already in Oblivion. I remember one couple in Anvil where one of them was a Bosmer and the other a Nord or something.

I am. I have created mods and done some modelling. I've bug tested and assisted with other mods.

In order for a fat person to appear fat in Oblivion, their clothing all has to be altered to suit the desired body type. Put skinny person clothing on a fat person, they will appear skinny.

The clothing doesn't deform to suit unless you alter the animation skeleton to make that happen.

Well, duh, but what would you do that?


Who's talking about deforming to suit in-game?

I'm going to stop right here, as this doesn't go with the theme of this thread. I must be some sort of modding genius as I figured out how to do fat people who remain fat after clothing removal/change without altering skeleton animations.

Because there are mods out there that allow NPCs to change clothing, that allow you to give them different clothing to wear and that make them companions and allow you to change their clothing, armor, weapons, tools, etc.

Properly implemented body differences would still allow all that to take place without problems. Altered races and altered clothing to match does not. It limits you to clothing and armor that has been specifically altered to suit the body type of the NPC.

I'm not denying that fat people can be done. It's no more difficult than werewolves, skeleton merchants or Goblin NPCs. However, there is a right way to do it in a new game engine and a wrong way. The right way requires a base structure in the engine that is designed for character diversity. I mean, seriously, Oblivion doesn't even have different animation skeletons for males and females, or for Argonians and humans (except the addition of a tail).

Dale B - I'm not arguing for explicit six in games here, but as fare as modern animation techniques go... All I have to say is Fable 3 - holding hands, dragging people behind you, carrying them and so on. It's been years of technological development in games, about time people stopped being lazy about the animation and start looking at new horizons. Personally I am almost offended that Fable has this while TES doesn't TES was always a deeper, more thoughtful world and that simple social interactions got left behind is quite upsetting.

Agreed.

I know you weren't talking about it.....but having been down this road numerous times (since Daggerfall, actually), I can assure you others were. And what Fable 3 had isn't what I'm talking about vis-a-vis the mechanics. Even there you got mesh interpenetration. Avoiding that requires either high precision mocap or very time consuming keyframing.....and even with mocap, the cleanup eats a lot of time.

And whether people like to hear it or not, a big problem with the social interactions getting more and more sparse link directly to the design decision to go with voice actors instead of text fields. Vocal reply prompts limits -what- can be scripted into actions to fit the canned vocal responses. Personally, I would trade the cool voices for text in a heartbeat....as you could increase the text by a few orders of magnitude and still not come close to filling up the space =one= speaking part occupies. I don't need to be told a story; I can bloody read. You could actually do both, and use the voice work for 'Star' moments, have NPC's talking with each other to give the world a more lived in feel, and use text for PC/NPC reactions.....which would allow for actual social diversity of the kind you'd like to see (and I would as well. One of the many laments the Daggerfools have is the continual removing of social stuff from TES. Maybe Skyrim is going to reverse that trend, somewhat........)

Hmmm... I suppose it would make things interesting, and it'd be great if they could throw in innuendo like they did in Morrowind (with Crassius Curio - "Uncle Crassius")

:rofl:

I'd say Uncle Crassius was a tad more than innuendo

I'm wondering what fat people have to do with sixual diversity :tongue:

Anyways - like another post made in this thread, so long as sixual orientation isn't a character's defining attribute, I don't see much problem in having gay/lisbian/bisixual characters whatsoever. Bethesda is more than capable of achieving this.