As long as it contains mild suggestive themes like the six-bot in NV or funny quotes I wouldn′t mind it at all, but on the other hand I think it′s a subject that doesn′t fit the lore. :shrug:

Fallout has more "room" to explore these matters IMO

I think the problem is many people can't take the "six" out of sixual orientation. sixual orientation refers to what gender(s) a person is attracted to. No one is talking about making the game into a XXX experience.

I always thought that gay people were too cool to play computer games. :thumbsup:

So we are agreeing on principle, we are just adding to the discussion

I'm not sure how one goes about portraying such themes in such a shallow medium as a video game without stereotypes and without relying on just mentioning it in lore or a shallow dialog reference... just your basic human being who happens to be a homosixual or a lisbian, going about his/her daily life, especially in the context of a game like TES. Yes, it is a role playing game, but the context of the game - I don't think - lends itself well to reach that level of acquaintance with someone with whom you exchange a few words without resorting to stereotypes or some out-of-place dialog. Now, personally, I have no problem with stereotypes in a video game, but I am guessing there would be an outcry about stereotyping just as loud as the outcry is for omission of certain facets of human behavior... maybe outcry is too strong a word... complaining?

I'm not so sure about that. The PCs relationship (as far as it went) with Ahnassi didn't feel cheesy to me; possibly because the relationship was more hinted at than explicit.

But perhaps I'm just not very discriminating .

It could be something as simple as seeing a couple walking hand in hand through the streets, or hearing a conversation about the kids or their plans of buying a house or a flat, or just wordless exchanges of gestures and body language. Very basic interactions such as these, that can indicate a variety of things, but neither of which scream for the player's attention. If Bethesda can add these things, and an inattentive player who's busy focusing on the dragon he has to slay wouldn't consciously notice, I'd consider it a great triumph. Having some of the romantically inclined interactions be between two men, two women or a Nord and a Khajit would be a triviality.

If sixuality is added in Skyrim, it would certainly be for the sake of completeness and realism. Then, if it is added, sixual diversity should be addressed.

I personally think that, if well handeled, it would add to the depth of the Elder Scrolls universe, beacause sixuality is usually closely related to religions and social movements.

Let's examine some example that could make my point more clear.

Of all Tamriellic cults, I think the most likely to be very tolerant towards all forms of sixuality is the cult of Mara. Mara worshippers are said to hate only hatred itself. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think they're hedonist people who love beauty and good feelings whereever they come from.

I wouldn't be astonished if I encountered a bisixual Mephala or Sanguine worshipper.

Vivec was androginous. So the Tribunal worshippers may have been tolerant towards bisixuality. On the other hand, the fact that all the Anticipations of ALMSIVI had an opposite gender compared to their Tribun could represent a research of perfection through complementarity. This could lead to another point of view in the Tribunal Temple, that would favor heterosixual relationships. Both points of view may have been violently abjured by the tribunal worshippers after the end of the Tribunal.

The sixual mores in the matriarchal societies of Mazkens and Aureals are, in my opinion, a matter of great interest. For example, male homosixual mazken could regard their homosixuality as a claim they are as worthy of love and respect as the females. The right of being gay would in this case be claimed in a context of revendications around man-woman equality in rghts. On the other hand, if female mazkens think that lisbian sixuality is well suited to the intrinsic nobility they own because of their gender, then homosixual male mazkens or aureals could be ostracized by some mazkens who think they try to mimic the females by whom they are oppressed.

I think these few considerations show that a treatment of sixuality and diversity in Skyrim would be both compatible with Elder Scrolls lore and worthy of interest.

I'm sorry for the language mistakes. English is not my mother tongue...

i think there should be more variety in the couples, i mean, why not?

actually, they sort of introduced this kinda thing in some books in morrowind, not sure if the books appeared before in past games...

anyway, im pretty sure that i read books about queen barenziah being involved with an argonian in ...uh, non-traditional ways.

atleast, i think thats right... i might be a little off, since its been forever, and i cant remember which book, but i know it was one of the books talking about her.

anyway, i think it'd make the world seem even more real to have the occasional "odd" couple, i mean... look at oblivion... they had a NECROPHILIAC living in a town ruled by a vampire!

it'd be a nice touch of reality, but i suppose it wont be too bad if they decide not to do it... for now, anyway.

Your English is more than adequate, even if you did choose a fitting username.

And your examples of how sixuality could be integrated into a complex, vibrant fantasy world are excellent - I tried to put across the same sentiment in an earlier post, but lacked the lore to give such good examples.

I would like to have sixual diversity in the game. I don't know why so many people think it's immersion breaking. If anything, it makes the world more believable. I'm sure there are a great amount of inter-species relationships in TES. Given what has been going on in the TES universe, I'd expect that if this element of society is implemented we would likely see some quests relating to it (i.e. "I dont want my elven daughter dating that human, either convince him to leave her, or kill him.") I think it's a great way to add to the game's social structures and make them more obvious.

If homosixuality is done as subtly as in FNV then I couldn't tell you why not. I believe that they should be a minority however. Dealing with personal experiance; I have only met one gay person, one lisbian and a couple bisixual people out of the myriad of people I have been friends with. I wouldn't want "Gay districts," maybe just the odd couple sharing a house or something. And with regards to the PC having an option, I think that should be dealt with entirely within dialogue - do you really need a perk to tell you who you like?

Lore wise (I think) interracial relationships are not frowned upon in most cultures of Tamriel. I think that the child of such a relationship will be of the mother's race if I am correct. I have no idea how Argonians would fit into this however, being reptillian and all...

I gave some thought to how I would like the system to work - it would be great if we had an additional tab for AI with social groups for the NPC (like we have animation, or services tab) groups including something like: friends, family, children. romantic interest, marriage partner, and let's say love affair group, and maybe enemies Other NPCs names can be added to thous groups. Every group should have unique greetings (like "Hello my friend" for friend group, "Hi honey" for marriage and so on), unique random dialogs we hear on the street (like "we are running out of bread, dear can you pick up some on they way home tonight?" for marriage, and "what do you say if we pick up our fishing rods and go fishing tomorrow?" for friends), and unique animations and gestures (friendly hugs for friend group, pecks on a cheek for family and so on).
So when two NPCs meet the game checks their group AI status, if they are friends some actions form friend category would be picked out randomly, if they are marriage partners, than actions are picked form there and so on. This way we will have plenty of visible interactions and a since of a living world. And of course some same six couples can be easily included.
Just an idea on how it may look.

I think people underestimate how many gay/bisixual people they know or have met. It's just that you can't see if someone is gay or bisixual by looking at them (despite the stereotypes). In the real world thousands (if not millions) still hide it too even in societies that are starting to shun the old bigotry.

As many others have said, it doesn't need to be made a point. Gene Roddenberry did not add it to Star Trek because he wanted to do so without it being a big deal. He wanted such characters to simply be there without calling specific attention to it. In the more backwards times of the 80s and early 90s, it would have been a major news story if there were gay or bisixual Star Trek characters so he never did it even though he wanted to. In the one episode that featured a potential relationship the taboo was focused on something else, and not the gender of the characters. Despite that the Star Trek magazine still got a ton of hate mail over it because showing a woman kissing another woman was just too much for some people.

Skyrim doesn't even need to go that far. As others said, it can be a Khajiit and Nord living together without calling too much attention to it. It could be a Breton and an Argonian, an Orc and an Altmar . It could be two women or two men. It doesn't have to be pushed in the player's face. It need only exist. If there are romantic options built in yeah I think the player should have choices regardless of race or gender but I doubt this game will have romance like that built in so that's a different topic entirely.

Whether people like it or not, gay and bisixual people have existed for all of recorded history. The same can be said for interracial couples. It isn't a matter of representing a fringe fetish or whatever. These are people that actually exist in the real world. The only difference in cultures is how much they are ostracized or covered up and denied legitimacy.

So if it's done it should be just as Gene Roddenberry wanted with Star Trek. It's just there, as it is in the real world, and it's not a big deal.

Underlined for emphasis, we do agree. :nod: A relationship with the player would need to be just like that, suggested rather than outlined. Those who want imagine something do, and however they want, those who don't, don't. Otherwise they would never get it right for everybody. Plus a seriously outlined relationship with the PC ? Concept is a bit creepy. :mellow:

Ah, Ahnassi... Was looking for her name.

seeing some of the outlandish responses on these threads has brought up some new questions. there is some rather crappy reasoning going on here.

not having gay relationships does not subtract from a game. just like not having romance options does not make an inferior game unless its a sims type game which TES is not. if TES decides to put hokers in like with fallout then we can talk about romance mechanics. until then its just not an objective of the game.

of the countless games i have played over my lifetime there have only been a handful that alluded to gay relationships. those games were not better because of it and the other games that did not include them were NOT worse for it. this argument that games need gay relationships to "be better games" is just stupid. the only people that would think that are people that are so caught up in their ideology and their lifestyle that everything around them must recognize them in some manner. i admittedly only know a handful of gay people and not once have i heard them complain about a game that didnt have gay relationships. this discussion came up years ago when oblivion was getting launched and not one of them said that they werent going to buy oblivion if it didnt have gay relationships. the ones that would have anyways since believe or not, not all gay people play video games. that stereotype can be put to rest. they could have cared less.

after the abysmal way they handled politically correct topics like women in the army and gays in new vegas i just dont trust bethesdas writers not to completely hack it up.

i would like to see a version of crassius though. that was one of the funniest parts in morrowind and it actually made me pause and do a doubletake. :biggrin:

(Mr. Mackey voice) six is bad, mmkay.

It's not a "lifestyle" or "ideology" it is a state of being. The only "lifestyle" choice is whether to hide from prejudice, and the only "ideology" is whether to accept the reality that these kinds of people exist.

This is not at all like other average games. This is a world that is meant to seem alive. Are you saying that if all NPCs lived in their own houses and there were no allusions to any relationships in the game between NPCs at all it would not subtract from the game? What is wrong for people that exist in the real world being represented in the game? It doesn't need to be obnoxious or in your face. They need only exist, just as they do in the real world. They don't shove it in your face for every couple that lives together in Oblivion for example, but they do exist.

You're right in the average game it doesn't make a difference, but when you create a world that is meant to feel alive, there is going to be diversity, and it's not a matter of "lifestyle" it's about a state of being. You can't see what a character's orientation would be just by talking to them most of the time anyway, so yes there could be "representation" without it being explicitly stated. Dumbledore in Harry Potter is a good example of this. No one knew until the author revealed it.

I'd say if every family in the game is the stereotypical man and woman of the same race with 2.5 kids it would be far less immersive than more realistic varieties of families.

I don't see people here saying they won't buy the game if it doesn't have same six relationships (unless I missed a post). Now if there is a romance plot involving the main character and there is no such option I could understand it, but that's not how this series works so that's really not something that would happen.

Lastly, the topic actually wasn't ignored in Oblivion.

I don't understand where people are coming from when they say that adding in these sorts of things necessitates a discussion of sixuality(as in, the actual acts involved), or that it's better left to games with "romance options". In Daggerfall and Oblivion, you came across a lot of little kingdoms/cities that had a ruling family. The difference would be, instead of a count and a countess, you'd see two countesses, or two counts(OF MURDER!...sorry, where was I?).
Simple as that. Nothing extreme, nothing calling huge attention to itself.
(Also, thank you, guy above me, for pointing out that there was indeed one homosixual individual that we actually knew about in Oblivion. I was kinda miffed that he winds up plot-dead though.)

It doesn't necessitate discussion, but what are fora for if not for discussions of topics that interest you?

There have always been some level of sixual orientation, as well as some other nasty implied discourses such as [censored] in ES (read: sixuality is not nasty, [censored] is).

This isn't like Star Wars, who has never had a homosixual relationships - ES seems to have had a prior history of imply stuff but never acting out on it. But I wonder how they will adapt to this, because the world is so huge? So if there was a PC relationship it would have to be between a limited number of people? They have the problem of the audience too. Even if it's a vague and not-so-developed it's going to be made into a big deal by some anti-fun group. Games such as Dragon Age kinda opened up the acceptance to it.

Oof I'm gonna stop there. I have too much to say on this but I can't get it out properly. I hope it's implemented, and I hope people don't make a big fuss over it.

i only want to see it in the game if its done right. if it isnt done right and you end up with really cheesy dialogue or bad storylines it detracts from the game. its like voice acting in mods. only a very few mods had decent voice acting and all the other mods had crappy voice acting and actually ended up making the mod worse than if they would have had just dialogue.

morrowind crassius moment was hilarious. i liked the quest they did in fallout 3 in the hotel (forgot the name) where you found out if some womens husband was cheating on her and you got to see her shoot him in the nuts. those were good stories and i thoroughly enjoyed them. then they went completely bonkers in new vegas. bethesda writers are not consistent and i would rather not have any romance stuff in there at all than run the risk of botching it up.

if they can do it right then yes but if not then hell no.

as for the not buying oblivion i was referring to the gay guys i talked too. none of them at the time thought it was a pressing issue. as i said it was a small sample and they were more shooter type gamers like myself anyways so social stuff isnt a high priority on our gaming wishlists.

But that's the thing: when was the last time you saw a couple holding hands in a video game? If all of the sudden you see 2 guys or 2 gals holding hands... as for wordless exchanges and body language, you are talking about coders who cannot code an NPC going up a step ladder (their own words, not mine).

Someone already mentioned - and I agree - that before they go into implementing certain behaviors or life styles, I rather they implement fat people, skinny people, short people, handicapped people, maybe sprinkle in some teenagers and kids... that, to me, would make the game world seem far more real than sixuality.

dwemer wheelchairs would be awesome. :rofl: they could have shock darts installed on them and for tricky areas like stairs or climbing hills they could have spiderbot legs pop out from underneath and get you over the tough terrain.

as for the npcs climbing ladders bethesda should look at dark messiah. those guards didnt have any issues climbing ladders.

GTA IV. Agreeably two vastly different genres in many ways, but Liberty City seemed a lot more alive than Cyrodill did.

As for the rest of your post; all of these things should be obvious if you want to make a living, breathing world. Call me optimistic, but I assume that the engine revamp has improved it all significantly.

I don't know what your immediate circle looks like, but mine, I see far more fat people, skinny people, short people, handicapped people, teenagers, kids, that I see displays of diverse sixuality. I'd think that sort of diversity would make the game seem far more "real" than sixual diversity.