For reference, here is the first http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1157908-sixual-diversity-in-skyrim/.

And Joda's ruleset:



Just because I felt I needed to reply!



Why in the world would you need to rely on stereotypes? I think you're being a bit misleading with your interpretation of the word 'represent'. No videogame has the role of holding up an example of what all people of a given social group are. If there was a big, muscular, drunk Nord kissing another on the cheek (cheek.. that's for you no romance in Bethesda games types) in a rowdy Nord pub, I'd know they are gay, it's "representing" it to me, but it's not trying to hold up any sort of paradigm, and it's not relying on any stereotypes that I can identify.

People have stated in the original thread that homosixual and inter-racial relationships does not add anything to the game. I wholeheartedly agree.
The thing is, not having it in subtracts something from the game. Being a RPG, the world seems alot less believable if the characters act like if they were part of a Donald Duck comic.
The Elder Scrolls series focuses so much on building the player's character that it often misses out on making good NPCs and relationships between both themselves and the player.

Jep. They should at least put in some gay dragons.

Wow that was fast. I appreciate the continuation, but to keep the level of civility of the last thread, can I ask of you, Holy_Moogle, that you either paraphrase my OP, put some effort into your own new one or just copy-paste the original OP?

EDIT
It appears Moogle's gone offline, so I'll just post my original OP here (and here's a http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1157908-sixual-diversity-in-skyrim/ to the last thread:)

If you plan to not read the full OP, at least go to the bottom and read the guidelines.

So as the title suggests, I wish to discuss the possibility of representing sixual diversity in Skyrim, and whether or not implementing it into the world (and possibly story) would be a good idea and would fit well with the game world. To break it down:

What do you mean by sixual diversity?
I mean the representation of more than one type of sixuality in the game. This can include attractions between two species as well as different and same gender attractions. The human population here on Earth has a 10% ratio of homo- or bisixual people in fairly liberal communities, so assuming that the humans of Tamriel are similar to us biologically and mentally, it would be safe to assume the same ratio there. And that's excluding attractions between different sapient species. Keep in mind here that I've hardly read any of the TES lore, and don't know how conservative the society is; but I expect that to be part of the discussion.

So you want us to discuss six?
NO! Please don't. This topic is a pandora's box in and of itself, and we don't need the discussion of whether or not six should be an element added to that. I want to discuss whether or not the diversity of sixual attraction in Earth humans should be represented in the game.

On a practical level, what does this mean?
Well first of all, it means that some rare couples in the game will be between two people of the same gender and/or, if it's consistent with the lore, of different species. If relationships will be a part of the game like some have requested, it might mean that the player can choose his or her character's sixuality, and they might rarely be approached by homo- or bisixuals of the same gender and/or other species. It's very hard to pull off without it seeming shoe-horned in, however, which, to me, is the main argument against implementing it.

For some more information on sixual diversity in games I recommend this video.

Guidelines

I expect the mods to be very wary about allowing this sort of topic, and I hope they won't close it as soon as they see it. I don't intend to do backseat moderating, but I will set up some guidelines to keep the discussion civil and avoid flamewars and pointless, never-ending and off-topic discussions.

I will personally monitor this thread closely and report any post that breaks these guidelines. All these things should go without saying, but my experience with internet forums has taught me they're needed.

Do not make remarks or otherwise discuss the following topics:

* Whether or not homo- and bisixuality is a choice
* Your personal views on homo- or bisixuals
* Any sort of religion that is not a part of TES Lore
* Political views that are not a part of TES Lore
* six



General DON'Ts

* Flaming
* Trolling
* Troll-baiting




TL;DR: Either read the entire thing, or don't reply. This topic interests me and I want a civil discussion about it; I'm not going to get that from someone who's posting on impulse.

Thank you, and I hope we can have a good discussion about this

I think I will stay away from this discussion. Too many homophobes. And I thought the most of western world had moved on and finally seen same-six relationships just as normal as opposite-six relationships . . .

Thread got locked before I could post this reply. So, here you go:



No problem! :read:

If we do have couples being more interactive, and I assume we will since children are in the game. I think some banter between lovers could be quite humorous.
They could even take it as far as a couple not getting a long and it leading to a quest like this if the player has been paying attention depending on the Radiant quest and A.I. systems:

Outlander's journal
Second seed, 12th, Fredas.

I noticed Chineapplepunk leaving Hrolfgar's tavern this evening, she seemed troubled. Now that I think about it, I haven't seen her husband in days. Maybe I should talk to her.

Second Seed, 13th, Loredas.

After speaking with Chineapplepunk I'm certain something is wrong. She evaded all of my questions until finally insisting that I leave. On my way out I noticed a large shovel in her garden. I should investigate further tonight if she goes back to the tavern.

Second seed, 13th, Loredas.

After inspection of the garden, it appears there is a large patch of freshly dug earth where her nightshade is planted.

Second seed, 13th, Loredas.

I used Chineapplepunk's shovel to dig up the soil, and I've found the body of her husband. I should report this to the guard immediately.

That is a way more NPC relationships could be great in Skyrim. Behold! I am Sherlock Outlander.

:lmao: That's definitely the direction for Bethesda devs to take it, I reckon.

Really? Only a gay men kiss another on the cheek? Could they not be brothers? Father-son? Childhood friends you consider family? Mafioso hitman about to kill you giving you the kiss of death? They HAVE to be gay? I see... yeah, no stereotype there..

... speaking of reality, imagine what would happen to 2 big, muscular drunk men (are they wearing chaps? ) kissing one another in a "rowdy" bar in front of other big, muscular, drunk men...

Boosh! The person claiming to have no bias toward homosixuals gets called out for stereotyping them. You are my hero SystemShock.

Completely agree. I don't know why some people are so defensive about this. Next thing, you'll have mono-parental mothers who'll want to be represented, you'll have transsixuals who'll want to be represented. It will never end if we try to represent everyone. There aren't even fat or skinny dudes in any TES game, children are something new and you want gays? Come on. I don't know if there will be families or anything in Skyrim, but the best for Bethesda would be to stick to heterosixual two parents families, no need for them to embark in an endless journey into representing every possible situation. It's a fantasy game anyway, no need to make them too fancy. Who knows, maybe homosixuality doesn't exist in Tamriel, as far as I know Nirn and its people are quite different from Earth. I seriously don't know how not adding them would be detrimental to the game, it's the least of my concerns for any game; I'd rather have everything else to be perfected than Bethesda loose time on something which is not necessary in any way.

I thought dragons were A-sixual :confused:

anyway IF they put some "romance" in the game I want it to be as diverse as possible, people's sixuality does not freak me out, it might do so for religious zealots and 12 year olds but neither should be playing a fantasy game in the first place.

honestly its the 21 century and we still act like its the dark ages, ancient cultures (Greek, Mesopotamian, Phoenicians, Romans......ect) were much more comfortable about six and sixuality!!! what the hell happened to humanity from then till now? Do we lay eggs now or something honestly :facepalm:

A relationship in the game would add nothing to it, and it's something I ALWAYS find cheesy when put in a game. It's just so fake, so unrealistic, so corny. It doesn't matter what kind of relationship it is.

I am of course speaking from the POV of the player. If other characters in the game are married, single, going out with each other etc, that's all fine and dandy.

I'm not taking any stances here, but do you seriously think humanity's primordial characteristics would be altered in any way by being more "civilized"? If anything we're just hiding those characteristics. Why do you think history repeats itself?



Completely agreed. Relationships AT ALL never brought anything interesting in video games anyway.

diddle, and to think cultures thousands of years ago were more open minded than cultures now its a shame really. I'm from the east and I have moved on.

:violin:

And yes I do think that as civilizations advance in general knowledge, they should try to ascend above their "bad" basic nature, and try to not be childish and idiotic basically

No hyphen. Like you don't say homo-sixual.

Plus, don't dragons have to reproduce? They're reptiles, so it's not like they can just split into two.

An interesting topic... and a potential minefield !

Regarding TES lore (what little I've read) and in-game representations of relationships that I've spotted... Inter-racial relationships are not the norm, but they do happen. Barenziah (a dunmer) became the lover of the Imperial Emperor Tiber Septim. However, their illegitimate child would have been regarded as a scandal. Barenziah's daughter (Morgiah) married the (I think Altmer) King Karoodil of Summerset Isle.

Relationships between humans/elves and Khajiit are also recorded in the in-game books, but almost always as being beyond the pale socially speaking. Interestingly the in-game accounts I've seen tend to hold these relationships up either as rather sordid (e.g. between Barenziah and Therris) or as doomed romances (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Last_Scabbard_of_Akrash). I'm not aware of any relationships in the lore between Argonians and other races, and the only Orc/other I've heard of was in Oblivion, the Grey Prince.

I'm also not aware of any same-six relationships being described in the lore or games - possibly because relationships between different fantasy species are seen as being what they are (fantasy), and so less controversial than same-six relationships that could be seen as reflections of real-world issues.

Ah yes, Oblivion also had a Dunmer lady from Morrowind whose romantic inclinations... leant somewhat in a graveyard direction. She's greatly relieved if you tell her that [edit the fine for a first offence is 'only' 500 gold /edit]. But I think we can safely regard her as a humorous example of the highly aberrant !

I think that in a game that is likely to get an M rating it's perfectly acceptable to show a smattering of varied relationships - and I think it would add to the maturity of the game if the writers took the opportunity to do so in a thoughtful and measured way. However, given the way some sections of the media love to hold games up as sordid corrupters of public morals, I suspect that a light touch would do more good than a heavy-handed ramming home of a social message.

Please correct me if I got you wrong, but you don't believe NPC-NPC relationships add anything to the game? Ever heard of world immersion? As for character-NPC relationships I'm unsure; I wholeheartedly agree if it's not related to the story and just there to be there but if done well both friendly and romantic relationships between the protagonist and NPCs can add depth to the experience and help us, as players, sympathise with our character and the world.



They could be amphibians?

That's a completely different topic, though

Why do you want an relationship with an AI ?
That's disgusting.

I don't see how seeing people kissing each other makes a game more immersive. Is real life less immersive if I don't see people kissing each other in more than a month? People could do that solely when alone for all we know, it's not because they don't show it that it's any less immersive.

Daggerfall had children.....and Redguard the main antagonist who controlled the province was a fat guy so :shifty:
also like stated Tiber had a Dunmer lover, and its already known that their are interracial relationships, thats nothing new.


How is Gay a sixual diversity? why is it even referred to as -sixual- is ones attraction to the same six so shallow? in the pants? I think not and as such it shouldnt even be specialized or discriminated its nothing new and nothing important, as as stated start representing one order, a whole bunch of otherones will come up. and in the very end we're just human, it only seeks to stir up more issues, theres nothing special about being Gay, Bi or Trans whole sale on Trans because if that individual was -clonned- they would come out their original gender, you can't change what you were originally born as.

And in that event because we are baising sixuality in what does that add to the game? besides humor (Cassius Curio was Bi, I don't care what you say)

Hearing mundane conversations about mudcrabs, no sort of personal conversation, no body contact (i.e. people holding hands, sitting up against each other and, indeed, kissing) would put me off severely in the real world, yes



That's merely a question of definitions. sixuality is defined as what gender(s) (and for the sake of TES, what species) a person finds attractive or can fall in love with. As I've clearly stated in the original OP, I have absolutely no intention of discussing six in this context.

Do I want a relationship with an AI? No, of course not. But RPGs are, in a large part, about telling stories. The character I'm controlling isn't me, but is exactly what the game calls it - a character. And you can create stories about this character; stories in which he or she does things that you would never do. Even things you disaprove of - if that makes a good story.

For instance, playing Knights of the Old Republic, I created a Revan who was angry, insecure, and defensive to the point of insanity, and so was always confrontational and usually (as a result) violent. Because of the way I played this character, and the way the writers had set up the game, this Revan ended up defeating Bastilla, and then stabbing her in the back. Did this fulfil some need in me? No. But it was a damn good story.

If I want to tell a story (in collaboration with the game writers, of course) where a Breton Battlemage embarks on a doomed love affair with a Khajiit assasin, shouldn't that be possible?

Maybe. But what is noticable that in media in general the non-main stream people are woefully underrepresented.
How often does it happen that the prince marries a prince instead of a princess?
I do not feel it is correct to simply act as if a percentage of people did not exist in romantic relationships as they are portrayed in fiction. Be it on tv or a movie, a book or a game.

If romance is included in a game of the scale of an elder scrolls game, then there should also be room for the occasional two nord guys (or girls) deciding to share a home.
It is important for the real life reason that it is wrong to portray culture so narrowly, it gives the impression this is the only acceptable way. And it is important for roleplaying reasons for those of us who are gay, it makes us more included.

Why is it important for the game? Because anything that makes NPC's more like real people adds to the immersion.

Same here, I don't see the relevance. I'm not saying there shouldn't be body contact, but that romantic relationships are the least necessary ones. A world without any body contact would be weird, but it's easy to miss lovers getting close to each other and all. Been some time since I saw lovers kiss each other. My life isn't less "immersive" because of this... But I saw plenty of body contacts, but that's besides the point, no?

Don't believe anyone - dragons are horny bastards, the only reason they haven't invaded 'till now is because they where to busy getting they numbers up Their main problem was that they couldn't actually tell their own gender (with the same models for all of them as it usually happens), so they had to switch around a lot until someone laid an egg...

On a serious note, and about relationships in general:

To SonOfStyx - I don't want to have relationships with AI, but I am not my character, since my char is just a brunch of polygons for him or her having a fling with AI is a huge step up

To Evil Johnny - look around you and you'll see people petting each others backs, hugging, holding hands, giving each other pecks on a cheek, and so on. Relationships are not portrait sorely by French kissing. And yes, if people around me ignored each other and avoided touching by all means necessary I'd think that something was differently wrong with the world.

And finally - I want romance in games not because I'm "not getting any" I'm a woman, an advlt and quite popular, don't worry. I have romances off all kinds present in my day to day live, and that's what makes me notice it's lack in game. Love and family is one of my own personal values, and I tend to project that value on my characters wherever I seriously role play. And that is why I want social intersection and romantic interactions to be present and noticeable in games, not because I live in a basemant (which I don't)